What don't you like about Pittsburgh? (Franklin, Jersey Shore: lawyer, movies, living in)

[guylocke]

On a completely unrelated note, I was trying to go back and read how this argument started and where it led (and got bored and stopped) and I happened to notice London is no longer a member.

Did she say anything before she left or was she dropped?

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by guylocke

I am behind the curve and barely even know what you guys are arguing about, but Pittsburgh has both a dialect AND an accent.

For example, I am a very well educated Pittsburgher (just officially received my doctorate btw, go me!) and I have never said yinz a day in my life. WHICH, btw, most young people don't. I think "yinz" is a dying word. Growing up, I never heard it uttered. I think it's very localized now to very specific areas and perhaps social class.

ANYWAY.

I speak VERY nice English and am a self-proclaimed writer and avid reader, so I think I have a pretty good handle on what is proper and improper language. However, people can still tell I'm a Pittsburgher across the country. People out of the blue have called it out on me from Tampa, FL, to Seattle, WA.

It is the way we pronounce certain words, the ACCENT, if you will. "Dahntahn" I am guilty of this. It's my accent. It is Pittsburgh culture, and much of it stems from the simple fact that Pittsburghers are very FAST talkers and we mush our words together. For example,

Jeet jet? No, j'ew? (Did you eat yet? No, did you?)

Accent. I don't think accents can be considered "right or wrong."

Now. YINZ is wrong. There ARE rules of ENGLISH. Omitting the preposition "to be" from the English language is against the rules, LOL. That is the one thing I am definitely guilty of that is incorrect.

The car needs washed. Right? Wait. The car needs TO BE washed? I would have never used TO BE in that sentence if my life depended on it.

So I think you need to be careful when arguing. There needs to be a distinct separation between talking about English as a Rule with a capital R, dialects, and accents.

In my opinion, some aspects of language are governed by rules and are either simply right or wrong, and other aspects of language aren't universal and are unique to regions and people, and could never be regulated as "right or wrong" as such.

Thanks, guylocke, that is what I was trying to say.

Originally Posted by guylocke

On a completely unrelated note, I was trying to go back and read how this argument started and where it led (and got bored and stopped) and I happened to notice London is no longer a member.

Did she say anything before she left or was she dropped?

I noticed that, too. I don't know what happened.

I'm outa here. I'm going to the dentist.

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by IAmAngieBowie

Oh no! PEOPLE IN ERIE think I'm pretentious!

I'm going to go hide under a blanket and cry. Oh my God, how will I ever face society? Please help me repent for the error of my ways!

I think you missed the point. Observing your attitude in this discussion, and knowing that saying someone "must be from New York" is code in certain parts of this state for saying that someone is arrogant would lead me to think that that's what people are noting when they tell you that.

When you blew me off by saying, "Okay, well, I don't care about Pittsburgh linguistics"... you might note that I actually hadn't spoken of Pittsburgh for a few posts.

Frankly, you are just as ignorant as all those Pittsburghers are in your mind, the difference being that you are aggressively so, because you apply your own ignorance of the situation as a means to look down on others.

My only goal was to get you to realize that there really is no basis for the degree to which you look down on people. If you wanna act like that, then lots of luck, because most people don't want to be around someone who takes the attitudes you do.

[guylocke]

Frankly, you are just as ignorant as all those Pittsburghers are in your mind, the difference being that you are aggressively so, because you apply your own ignorance of the situation as a means to look down on others.

Well said.

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by Katiana

(Katiana)

(BrianTH)

OK, so I will ask somebody else, anybody else other than Brian, are there rights and wrongs in grammar in Chinese, Farsi, etc? I seem to recall that being the case when I took French, including at Pitt.

Yes, other languages have standards, but if you had ever been to Europe, then you would know that is very highly misleading.

We have a dialect called "Standard American", but here is the kicker... no one speaks it. Just like almost everyother standard, it is an idealized dialect, based off of some conception of a dialect that is "most proper", in this case the Midlands Dialect, but that is, in fact, spoken by absolutely no one. Even the Midlands dialect that Standard American is based off of has drifted away from it. And, in fact, Standard American was only invented as a means to make mass media as least offensive sounding as possible to the highest number of people.

America is unusual in that its "prestige dialect" was chosen using such light methods. Typically, a standard is imposed upon other people by those who have the political power (though we are starting to see more of that here, as people who speak "improperly" are stigmatized). But even in countries like that, especially in Europe, most people have been speaking the dialect they speak for so long that they get by speaking it. If you ever went to Southern Germany, or Italy, you would see how differently people can speak a language from what is considered "correct". And even in those places where the standard originated, chances are the dialect spoken there has drifted far away from what is standard... and frankly, even if you went to those places and just spoke standard, you would sound like a robot.

I bet your French teacher never told you that, even if you got an A in her class, learned the accent and went over to Paris and spoke to these people in pristine standard French, you would still look like a perfect jackass and would be marked as a foreigner right away. It's when you can speak the language the way they speak it that most people think you are reasonably competent in it. And especially in French, there is a vast difference between written and the standard, and how people actually speak it, and as I said, the differences in dialects in Europe are much more vast than anything you see here in the States or in Canada.

In another post you suggested that in languages there is such a thing as "better" or "more logical"... no, there isn't. Generally, the standard is an accident of history and people were speaking 50 different varieties, that were all oppressed because the standard speakers had more power.

If things had been different, Occitan would be considered the "right" French, and the French that developed around Paris would be endangered... now the two have drifted so far apart that they are considered different languages all together, but it didn't have to be that way.

The English spoken in Kent could have become the "right" English, where, in the 15th century, a woman thought a man from Essex must be speaking French, because what he was saying was so different to her.

Ukrainian was once the "right" kind of Russian, but then when the center of power moved to Moscow, Ukrainian was thought of as "odd" and "quaint" and only spoken by the under class. Now, of course, Ukraine is a separate nation again, and Ukrainian is a "language"... which just illustrates how muddled the boundaries between languages and dialects can be.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by supersoulty

Yes, other languages have standards, but if you had ever been to Europe, then you would know that is very highly misleading.

We have a dialect called "Standard American", but here is the kicker... no one speaks it. Just like almost everyother standard, it is an idealized dialect, based off of some conception of a dialect that is "most proper", in this case the Midlands Dialect, but that is, in fact, spoken by absolutely no one. Even the Midlands dialect that Standard American is based off of has drifted away from it. And, in fact, Standard American was only invented as a means to make mass media as least offensive sounding as possible to the highest number of people.

America is unusual in that its "prestige dialect" was chosen using such light methods. Typically, a standard is imposed upon other people by those who have the political power (though we are starting to see more of that here, as people who speak "improperly" are stigmatized). But even in countries like that, especially in Europe, most people have been speaking the dialect they speak for so long that they get by speaking it. If you ever went to Southern Germany, or Italy, you would see how differently people can speak a language from what is considered "correct". And even in those places where the standard originated, chances are the dialect spoken there has drifted far away from what is standard... and frankly, even if you went to those places and just spoke standard, you would sound like a robot.

I bet your French teacher never told you that, even if you got an A in her class, learned the accent and went over to Paris and spoke to these people in pristine standard French, you would still look like a perfect jackass and would be marked as a foreigner right away. It's when you can speak the language the way they speak it that most people think you are reasonably competent in it. And especially in French, there is a vast difference between written and the standard, and how people actually speak it, and as I said, the differences in dialects in Europe are much more vast than anything you see here in the States or in Canada.

In another post you suggested that in languages there is such a thing as "better" or "more logical"... no, there isn't. Generally, the standard is an accident of history and people were speaking 50 different varieties, that were all oppressed because the standard speakers had more power.

If things had been different, Occitan would be considered the "right" French, and the French that developed around Paris would be endangered... now the two have drifted so far apart that they are considered different languages all together, but it didn't have to be that way.

The English spoken in Kent could have become the "right" English, where, in the 15th century, a woman thought a man from Essex must be speaking French, because what he was saying was so different to her.

Ukrainian was once the "right" kind of Russian, but then when the center of power moved to Moscow, Ukrainian was thought of as "odd" and "quaint" and only spoken by the under class. Now, of course, Ukraine is a separate nation again, and Ukrainian is a "language"... which just illustrates how muddled the boundaries between languages and dialects can be.

Well, now. My French teachers never said "you'll stand out like a jackass in Paris", but of course it was acknowledged that we didn't speak French like the, well, French. When I was a kid growing up there were a lot of people in Beaver Falls for whom English was not their first language, so the vast majority of the students in my class, including me, were well aware we were not speaking French like the Parisians do. My DH took Spanish and he has a hard time conversing with the native Spanish speakers around here. However, here is a little story for you: My friend's son was working as a civil engineering tech for the city one summer and he had to supervise a bunch of guys. He had to reprimand them, and they started conversing together about him in Spanish. Even though he couldn't speak Spanish like a Mexican, he could understand what they were saying! Moral of the story, always be careful when you talk about someone else, even in a foreign language. BTW, I have been to Europe, and why assume my French teacher was a woman? In point of fact, I had several, some male and some female.

I am well aware of "High German" and "Low German". Apparently they are quite different.

I believe the post about something being more logical was in regard to mile markers on the interstate highway system.

[supersoulty]

I'll respond to the rest of you post later... I just wanted you to know that I didn't mean to be offensive when I said "perfect jackass". I think you took it that way, I was simply commenting that that is how it would be perceived.

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Well, now. My French teachers never said "you'll stand out like a jackass in Paris", but of course it was acknowledged that we didn't speak French like the, well, French. When I was a kid growing up there were a lot of people in Beaver Falls for whom English was not their first language, so the vast majority of the students in my class, including me, were well aware we were not speaking French like the Parisians do. My DH took Spanish and he has a hard time conversing with the native Spanish speakers around here. However, here is a little story for you: My friend's son was working as a civil engineering tech for the city one summer and he had to supervise a bunch of guys. He had to reprimand them, and they started conversing together about him in Spanish. Even though he couldn't speak Spanish like a Mexican, he could understand what they were saying! Moral of the story, always be careful when you talk about someone else, even in a foreign language. BTW, I have been to Europe, and why assume my French teacher was a woman? In point of fact, I had several, some male and some female.

I am well aware of "High German" and "Low German". Apparently they are quite different.

I believe the post about something being more logical was in regard to mile markers on the interstate highway system.

Nevermind, obviously there is some damage control I need to do here, so I will respond now. As I said, I had no intent, at all, to be in anyway offensive.

I don't know why I said "she" except the French teachers at my schools tended to be women, so I must have thought of that first. It was not a knock against women.

And, clearly, through your own story, you see the need to speak a language as the speakers actually speak it... so then why see English as it is actually spoken as anything "less"? The dialects that existed in England weren't degraded forms of Modern English, as many assume, but rather they were varieties that developed from the first thing, Old English, which in turn had been just another variety of Western Germanic, which is turn was just another variety of Proto-Germanic, which is turn was just another variety of Proto-Indo-European... and back to the first thing spoken. And then it just so happened that the English variety, spoken by the upper-class in London became the "standard" form, over all the others that were being spoken at the time. And we then, in turn, inherited our ways of speaking here in North America from them, and then those too changed.

Forgive me, I thought the quip about the highway system was intended to be an analogy about accents and dialects.

[supersoulty]

There is another irony inherent in people's attitudes about American dialects, and that is that people from Appalachia are generally perceived as being very uneducated, and thus the way they speak is the most "incorrect", when actually, several studies have show that, if you want the dialect that has changed the least and is the most like what was spoken 200 years ago, its that Appalachian dialects, because limited exposure to the outside world means that the rapid language change that has occurred all over the rest of the country has not happened there. That is, if you standard is that innovation and change in language are bad, in and of themselves.

Doesn't that turn the whole argument on its head?

[Katiana]

Well, I have heard that too about the Appalachian dialect, though actually I heard it was southern speech in general. In any event, the southern accent, with all its different dialects, does not sound anything like modern English as spoken in England. Don't forget that 200 years ago, there was no word for computer, or AIDS, or indeed many other medical/scientific terms. So yes, I acknowledge, (I think I did earlier, too) language is always changing. This reminds me of a conversation I had with my dearly-beloved ex-husband, about feminism and using feminist words. He thought it was a bunch of hooey to say he/she, him/her when writing, etc. I said the language is always changing, we don't call people with Down Syndrome "Mongolian idiots" as people used to. That is just one example.

So we are probably in general agreement about a lot of language stuff. I still don't like "yinz/youns". Neither do I like "yous", which is used out here sometimes as the plural of you. I heard this has something to do with our Spanish heritage, as in Spanish there are words for both the singular and plural of you. In general, I love our Spanish heritage, just not that word, I would add.