Pennsylvania / Pittsburgh teacher salaries (Economy, Carnegie: day care, middle school, university)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Actually, studies have shown that standardized test scores are directly correlated to parental socio-economic status. In other words, the more money the parents have, the higher the test scores. The test scores are not at all a measure of teacher quality. For the most part, these kids would learn and do well no matter who was teaching.

Well, both things are true: test scores correlate positively with both parental socio-economic status and also with teaching quality. In that sense, there is no reason to insist on one factor to the exclusion of the other. It should also be noted that the subset of children with parents of high socio-economic status and uniformly poor teaching quality is very small.

And it really is hard for me to accept that some teachers are making twice as much as others, who are doing the same thing. Experience is helpful to a point, but not forever. Salary structures are built around years of teaching experience, and additional college credits beyond the BA/BS.

Although I would like to see more merit-based pay, I think it is important to note that seniority pay is not just about rewarding experience. It also rewards loyalty, and therefore reduces churn.

Re: school finance-In 1989, Colorado passed the school finance equalization act, which, in simple terms, leveled off per pupil financing from district to district. The state contributes more to the poorer (financially) districts. There is a cap on how much local districts can over-ride the state per-pupil allottment, thus eliminating super wealthy districts with huge per pupil spending. The effect has been to not completely equalize school funding, but to at least make it a little more equitable. CO doesn't have many districts that are considered "bad". This is not to say that CO is the gold standard, just to show how one state has equalized funding to a certain extent. Other states are doing this as well, I believe.

Yes indeed, and I believe Pennsylvania needs to move in this direction.

[Katiana]

Although I would like to see more merit-based pay, I think it is important to note that seniority pay is not just about rewarding experience. It also rewards loyalty, and therefore reduces churn.

I can't think of too many other businesses/industries that have a pay scale like the teachers. It's certainly NOT the case in nursing or engineering. Point being, this is a very unusual practice.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Katiana

I can't think of too many other businesses/industries that have a pay scale like the teachers. It's certainly NOT the case in nursing or engineering. Point being, this is a very unusual practice.

Well, some elements of seniority-based pay are pretty common, precisely because they have certain benefits for employers (it is basically a way of deferring some compensation contingent on the employee remaining with the employer). In fact, even just a policy of giving yearly raises that average slightly over a COLA would count as an informal seniority-based system.

But what is indeed unusual is the degree to which seniority pay dominates traditional public school teacher compensation. And that is part of why I think that while some seniority-based pay is fine, a lot more merit-based pay (and more pay for hard-to-fill positions) would be a good idea.

[beckyzaz]

I have never in ALL my life seen so many people quite so bitter over the whole "3 months off" and "holidays off" thing. All I can is wow... if you are that sour, why didn't you go to school to be a teacher?

[right-here-i-say]

Originally Posted by beckyzaz

I have never in ALL my life seen so many people quite so bitter over the whole "3 months off" and "holidays off" thing. All I can is wow... if you are that sour, why didn't you go to school to be a teacher?

beckyzaz, The "if you can't beat them, join them" is not the way we should be thinking....it is about the kids. We are really hurting our children by keeping them at home during the summers. Plus, not all parents have the money to stay at home or pay for childcare. Most teachers will tell you that the 1st month back is basically trying to get the kids back to where they were 3 months before.

If it was about the kids, we would have year round schooling. It is about the teachers, and their wish for summers off. If I was a teacher I would like 3 months off a year, of course, the kids will suffer but I would be happy.

[North Beach Person]

While you guys complain about "3 months off" keep in mind that it's unpaid, teachers work 180-190 days and get paid for them. If they get a check in the summer it's deferred compensation for the rest of the year. I seem to remember USWA members got 13 weeks of paid vacation. And no, you folks that talk about "for the children" don't mean it. Your own statement betrays it-"can't afford child care". And try to get year round school past the businesses who depend on summer workers because their business is summer dependent-won't happen. VA state law evens forbids schools to start before Labor Day because of King's Dominion. Go year round and see what the teacher salaries for 240 days are compared to 180, then there will be even more complaints about teachers being overpaid. Very few of you have jobs where you have to set up the work to be done if you take a day off and then are responsible for the behavior of the students when you're off. If some of this sounds snarkey it's not really meant to but I teach in a system where parents drop their kids off on in-service days, when we have to be in meetings, because they can't leave the kids at home. This would be a high school. Oh yeah, my "3 months" this year was 7 1/2 weeks, and I still had to go in 1 day a week, unpaid, to take care of paperwork and mail. And spend a week, again unpaid, for administrative team building and I'm not an administrator.

[right-here-i-say]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

While you guys complain about "3 months off" keep in mind that it's unpaid, teachers work 180-190 days and get paid for them. If they get a check in the summer it's deferred compensation for the rest of the year. I seem to remember USWA members got 13 weeks of paid vacation. And no, you folks that talk about "for the children" don't mean it. Your own statement betrays it-"can't afford child care". And try to get year round school past the businesses who depend on summer workers because their business is summer dependent-won't happen. VA state law evens forbids schools to start before Labor Day because of King's Dominion. Go year round and see what the teacher salaries for 240 days are compared to 180, then there will be even more complaints about teachers being overpaid. Very few of you have jobs where you have to set up the work to be done if you take a day off and then are responsible for the behavior of the students when you're off. If some of this sounds snarkey it's not really meant to but I teach in a system where parents drop their kids off on in-service days, when we have to be in meetings, because they can't leave the kids at home. This would be a high school. Oh yeah, my "3 months" this year was 7 1/2 weeks, and I still had to go in 1 day a week, unpaid, to take care of paperwork and mail. And spend a week, again unpaid, for administrative team building and I'm not an administrator.

In Pennsylvania, their salaries are full year salaries (examples include $80K for a kindergarten teacher). Don't think for a second that their salary can't pay the bills.

As for your "for the children" remark, I was basically just talking about the lower income folks, not me personally. But hey, those are just the lower income folks, right? The rich will be just fine. As long as you get your time off. And really, the kids have only lost 1/3 of their year in learning. (3 months off and 1 month to get them back where they were) Great way to lead them into the Global Economy.

There really is no way to justify the 3 months off if educating our children is the #1 priority.

And your 7.5 weeks (plus more holidays than most companies give) is about 6 weeks more on average than those people who send their kids to your school.

[North Beach Person]

Full year salaries? Look again, they get paid for the school year, whatever it is, and the rest is deferred to keep the checks coming during the summer. Year round checks maybe, not year round pay.
The 9-10 month school year is a vestige of when we were an agricultural society. It's not teachers who keep it in it's parents and businesses.

My 7.5 weeks, unpaid, does compare unfavorably with my neighbor the Saeway clerk who gets 5 weeks paid, and options to work holidays or triple time. Next holiday is Veteran's Day, a work day. After that is Thanksgiving, off. How's the first couple days of deer season in PA? Schools are off aren't they? Then Christmas, let's have the parents bring the kids in that week. You know it won't happen.
Global economy? OK, you and I happen to agree on a couple points, but do you insist that ALL students be in college prep? If you do you're setting some of them up for failure.

What happens to child care during the year? Poor folks don't work or do the kids stay by themselves? Oh that's right, the schools have to run after care programs.

[bboy36win]

Originally Posted by North Beach Person

Full year salaries? Look again, they get paid for the school year, whatever it is, and the rest is deferred to keep the checks coming during the summer. Year round checks maybe, not year round pay.

If salaries are only for 9 months work, then they're getting paid awfully well. So why is it that teachers complain so universally about being underpaid?

My neighbor (a teacher) gets home everyday at about 3:30, works 9 months a year, and complains about being underpaid. Seems like pretty good pay for a part-time job, doesn't it?

[North Beach Person]

I've never complained about being underpaid, you know what the salary is going in. But don't say that teachers get paid for days they don't work, that was my issue on the post. Of course a math/physics major gets a job (in this area anyway) with Martin-Marietta a $60K and a teacher goes in at $38K, which will explain why more people don't go into education. Don't judge the number of teachers by what you see in PA, the colleges there are still turning them out while the state has lost school age population. That's why a lot of them move out of state.