What do Native Pittsburghers Consider Themselves? (Erie, York: house, live in, vs.)

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by ainulinale

Why would you say Pittsburgh's attitude, economy and culture is more like the Midwest? Pittsburgh is one of the most educated cities in the country--the only Midwestern city in the top 20 is St. Paul, the Northeast has: Washington DC, Boston and New York. On economic connectivity Pittsburgh's most important cities are: (1) Washington DC, (4) Philadelphia, (7) Boston; I don't know where Pittsburgh ranks on the East Coast hinterlands except for New York--Pittsburgh is the fourth most important American city for New York in economics. I also think it's worth mentioning that Pittsburgh might not exist if it wasn't for it's connectivity to the East Coast. The Pennsylvania cannal connected Pittsburgh and Philadelphia and the influx of everything from the East Coast probably saved the city from decay.

That's great. Over half the stuff in my closet comes from China. Am I Chinese? Economy isn't everything. I understand your point about connectivity, but that's far from the whole picture.

Pittsburgh is linguistically different from the East Coast... very much so. It is also more socially conservative than the East Coast. It still has a fairly working class industrial attitude, even with the changes in the economy that have occurred.

Just think of all the stereotypes about people from Pittsburgh, do they remind you more of the midwest or the northeast?

[supersoulty]

Not to take this conversation into the political realm, but I think Barack Obama's comments about Western, PA show that there is a clear difference between it and the "rest" of the Northeast. Not because we actually are the caricature that he drew up, but because they really don't understand us that much.

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by supersoulty

The reason you can't find a comparison to Pittsburgh in most of the Northeast is because most Northeastern cities all smash into each other. Pittsburgh doesn't have that issue. Thus, that makes it more like a mid-western city. To just arbitrarily say that Pittsburgh is in the Northeast because it is 30 miles east of the Ohio boarder is sorta pushing the limit.

That is partially true of the east coast cities, but not of the more inland cities of upstate NY, e.g. Albany, Rochester, Buffalo.

started out my part of the discussion by noting I was talking about "Western, PA" not just Pittsburgh. The two can't be separated, it helps to look at the rest of the area I am talking about. Certainly the towns and small cities around Pittsburgh are far more Midwestern in attitudes and economy than they are Northeastern.

What is a "midwestern" attitude? As opposed to a northeastern one. The economies of the small towns around Pgh were at one time based on steel. West of Chicago, e.g. Minneapolis, there's not much steel making going on in the midwest. Chicago itself has long had a much more diverse economy than Pgh had in the steel days.

[fleetiebelle]

do they remind you more of the midwest or the northeast?

As a midwesterner by birth, they remind me more of the Northeast, actually. Not the "city" NE of Boston or NYC, but Western Mass, Western NY, definitely.

[Katiana]

I think western Connecticut looks a lot like W. PA.

[BrianTH]

As always, the impossibility of making a convincing argument (meaning convincing to someone who doesn't already agree) for Pittsburgh being more like the East Coast cities or more like the Great Lakes cities just suggests to me we do in fact need to define a new region in between the East Coast and Great Lakes and locate Pittsburgh in that region.

I see three notable objections to this proposal. One is just coming up with a suitable description, including boundaries, but that is surmountable even if we don't all entirely agree on every issue.

A second is the point suggested above, that we shouldn't be creating new regions just because of minor differences. I think this is a good point, but I am really convinced it is warranted in this case. For example, I grew up in Detroit and then lived for a while in Chicago. Chicago and Detroit are not identical, but I have no problem recognizing them as being in the same cultural region. Pittsburgh, however, really is different from both Detroit and Chicago. On the other hand, I also went to college in Connecticut and have lived in DC. I similarly see no problem with CT and DC being in the same region, but I again think Pittsburgh is different from both.

The final notable objection is that any reasonable definition would seem to leave Pittsburgh as the only largish city in this region. I actually think that is perfectly accurate.

In fact, if you ever look at one of those population density maps with the white dots for a certain amount of people, between the East Coast and Great Lakes, and Upstate New York and the DC area, there is a notable dark spot (meaning a region of lower population density), with just one big white spot (indicating a major metropolitan area) southwest of Upstate New York and northwest of DC, until you get to the Great Lakes. That white spot is Pittsburgh, and at least the northeast part of that dark spot is roughly what I would define as this region.

Anyway, here is the sort of map I have in mind:

Population Distribution in the United States: Census 2000

And now I will let the eternal East versus Midwest debate rage on.

[Katiana]

And now I will let the eternal East versus Midwest debate rage on.

There is a similar Midwest/Great Plains debate going on over on General US. It gives us something to do, no?

[BrianTH]

Incidentally, I'd say Buffalo is more Great Lakes than anything else, but the farther east you get in Upstate New York, the more you are getting into the same region as Vermont and NH, but not the same as New York City. But we are struggling enough with Western PA, so I wouldn't advise trying to sort out Upstate NY at the same time.

[JoeP]

The reason you can't find a comparison to Pittsburgh in most of the Northeast is because most Northeastern cities all smash into each other

No, some Northeastern metros run together, along the coast/95 corridor.

If we get out of the mindset of I-95 = the Northeast, then we can all recognize the diversity of the Northeast.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Katiana

There is a similar Midwest/Great Plains debate going on over on General US. It gives us something to do, no?

I'd say there are at least three distinct regions in what is sometimes called the Midwest, and more if you want to treat certain parts toward the east and west respectively as still being Midwestern. But I have no intention of getting into all that.