U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Pittsburgh
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-26-2019, 08:26 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
13,134 posts, read 13,272,981 times
Reputation: 11056

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
Again, if we're telling working-class whites being priced out of their long-time newly-trendy neighborhoods to just shut up and move to the suburbs or to far-flung mill towns and make lemonade out of lemons, then why aren't we telling working-class blacks being priced out of trendy neighborhoods to do the same instead of moving mountains so they can stay in/near their long-term newly-trendy neighborhoods?

Label me a racist all you want, but I'm not going to stop bringing this issue up until that question is finally addressed to my satisfaction in a way that isn't presented as a double-standard or in pure condescension. Until the Penn Plaza debacle I would have been fine vacating my neighborhood to make room for the hundreds of incoming wealthier white techies who will soon be working at Facebook in the Strip so they could walk to work. Now that I see if you put up a fight you'll get your way, which is what's been happening in East Liberty, then, of course, I, too, am going to put up a fight to stay put in/near my neighborhood.
Again, Penn Plaza was a 312-unit apartment complex. That's something entirely different from people tricking out of chopped up homes in dribs and drabs every month. The rental market in Pittsburgh can deal with the latter, but the large number of very poor (largely elderly/disabled) residents being pushed out all at once meant there were just not enough apartments open in the month they needed.

Because, when it comes down to it, the trickle is mostly ignored by everyone out of both black and white neighborhoods. Why do you think East Pittsburgh has become a majority-black borough over the last 10 years? Why are places like Wilmerding, Turtle Creek, and Pitcairn well on their way? Why does the black section of Penn Hills continue to expand eastward? It's not through natural increase, and it's not just because white people are leaving. It's because black people continue to leave the East End in dribs and drabs - either due to gentrification or just escaping falling-down neighborhoods in Homewood, Wilkinsburg, etc.

When it comes down to it though, the vast majority of subsidized housing built in Pittsburgh is basically for one of two reasons.

1. It's purpose built to replace old, outdated public housing (Terrace Village, the brand-new Allegheny Dwellings, or the various projects in East Liberty which were mostly built to relocate people from the towers).

2. It's built in a largely blighted/empty area with good access to transit/jobs, where there will be a lot of demand for housing (much of the work reconstructing Crawford-Roberts, and the new projects in Homewood South).

There is absolutely nothing stopping a poor white person from living in these subsidized housing projects. Indeed, most of the "classic" housing projects in the city started out as either all white or integrated in the mid-20th century. The housing is built for low-income people irrespective of race. If white people choose not to live in them, that's their business, not the business of the city.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-26-2019, 08:33 AM
 
8,063 posts, read 5,305,069 times
Reputation: 8939
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Again, Penn Plaza was a 312-unit apartment complex. That's something entirely different from people tricking out of chopped up homes in dribs and drabs every month. The rental market in Pittsburgh can deal with the latter, but the large number of very poor (largely elderly/disabled) residents being pushed out all at once meant there were just not enough apartments open in the month they needed.

Because, when it comes down to it, the trickle is mostly ignored by everyone out of both black and white neighborhoods. Why do you think East Pittsburgh has become a majority-black borough over the last 10 years? Why are places like Wilmerding, Turtle Creek, and Pitcairn well on their way? Why does the black section of Penn Hills continue to expand eastward? It's not through natural increase, and it's not just because white people are leaving. It's because black people continue to leave the East End in dribs and drabs - either due to gentrification or just escaping falling-down neighborhoods in Homewood, Wilkinsburg, etc.

When it comes down to it though, the vast majority of subsidized housing built in Pittsburgh is basically for one of two reasons.

1. It's purpose built to replace old, outdated public housing (Terrace Village, the brand-new Allegheny Dwellings, or the various projects in East Liberty which were mostly built to relocate people from the towers).

2. It's built in a largely blighted/empty area with good access to transit/jobs, where there will be a lot of demand for housing (much of the work reconstructing Crawford-Roberts, and the new projects in Homewood South).

There is absolutely nothing stopping a poor white person from living in these subsidized housing projects. Indeed, most of the "classic" housing projects in the city started out as either all white or integrated in the mid-20th century. The housing is built for low-income people irrespective of race. If white people choose not to live in them, that's their business, not the business of the city.

This is gospel.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2019, 08:36 AM
 
Location: Brookline
2,953 posts, read 2,305,549 times
Reputation: 3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
Again, why is it that poor white families should be expected to move out of the way of progress so affluent whites can move in and "improve the city", but poor black families should be given generous financial stipends, media coverage, time with the mayor, relocation assistance, etc. in order to stay in their neighborhood of choice or an adjacent one?

If poor white families are being told "move to Springdale or Coraopolis..." then poor black families should be told "move to Duquesne or Clairton..."

If we are truly starting to see an inversion occur with wealthier white people moving into the city from the suburbs and from out-of-state and displacing poorer white and black people out into the suburbs, then the poorer white and black people being displaced should be treated equally.

Also, as I said as long as I'm no longer single and am now working ~55 hours per week my partner and I can weather future rent increases associated with Facebook moving to the Strip soon. This isn't about "me" in particular despite many on here trying to make it as such. It's about having concern about those who are in the situation of the lower-income white households I know who have already been displaced---just quietly without protesting for some reason. I was in danger of being displaced before we decided to cohabitate for financial reasons.

Why is nobody advocating for other long-term lower-income white renters? Why is the solution for them "get out of the way of Facebook" while the solution for poorer black people being displaced by techie whites in East Liberty is "let's move mountains and get the mayor and media involved..." Why should poor whites be forced into suburbia while poor blacks are allowed to stay in the city? Is it the idealization of affluent whites to live in a city of just affluent whites and poor blacks someday while poor whites are "outta sight; outta mind?"
Are you advocating for this issue anywhere other than on the internet?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2019, 08:38 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
21,086 posts, read 20,176,869 times
Reputation: 13360
Quote:
Originally Posted by norcider View Post
Where are the working class white people going when gentrification supposedly pushes them out? The suburbs. Seems they have the means (owned their home) to relocate and they chose to cash out. How is that blamed on rich millennials? Not many people here remember what Lawrenceville was like 15 or more years ago, you would not go there unless you had family/friends. It looked just like Millvale did before the breweries and $8/slice pizza joints. Seems to me the gentrification problem can be blamed on white working class as much as wealthy city dwellers. I don't remember a Lawrenceville diaspora of homeless white people moving to an even less less prosperous neighborhood, because it didn't happen.
What do you mean, "supposedly pushes them out"? Are you saying people didn't have to move out of Lawrenceville because of rent increases or property reassessments that raised their taxes to the point of them having to move? Do you feel that didn't happen? I know a few people personally that it happened to and I don't even know a lot of people there.

I applaud people who moved out of Lawrenceville and went to Millvale, Etna (I know a few) and Sharpsburg before eviction/forced. This is intelligent and what one would expect from any hard working person. They get the rent increase and start looking knowing it is just not sustainable. THAT is the difference. Notice, I am not backwards enough to classify any of it by race, because it makes little sense and that way of thinking is by definition "racist". It is if as black people can't see the writing on the wall and move as well. I know at least one off the top of my head that moved out of Lawrenceville because rent went up so high. Race isn't part of this really. It is intelligence and knowing when to leave an area because it is too expensive now. Smart people don't feel they are owed or feel they have a right to live in a place that is too expensive.

This happens at all levels of incomes/expense. I had two homes at different times that I sold knowing my tax load was going to be around a grand a month due to my restoration of them. Did I stay anyway? I sure would have loved to, but I sold them knowing I wasn't comfortable with that kind of outlay. It is called being smart, not a moron.

If you become "homeless" that is more of a mental illness these days. The poorest of the poor are walking around with $1000 smartphones. I see it all the time. Everything is there for the taking if you are poor, but if you get hooked on drugs, that is a real issue.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2019, 08:43 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
21,086 posts, read 20,176,869 times
Reputation: 13360
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post

Label me a racist all you want, but I'm not going to stop bringing this issue up until that question is finally addressed to my satisfaction in a way that isn't presented as a double-standard or in pure condescension. Until the Penn Plaza debacle I would have been fine vacating my neighborhood to make room for the hundreds of incoming wealthier white techies who will soon be working at Facebook in the Strip so they could walk to work. Now that I see if you put up a fight you'll get your way, which is what's been happening in East Liberty, then, of course, I, too, am going to put up a fight to stay put in/near my neighborhood.
I don't feel you are a racist at all FWIW. I feel you don't understand why some get sympathy due to race and others get nothing as if the situation is different someone. People get displaced due to rising costs. It has nothing to do with race, it has to do with income levels. People DO love to be a victim however. Being a victim in one's own mind makes up for their own stupidity because they shift the blame away from themselves on to an environment. I can assure you that there aren't "victims" these days, only people that like to claim it.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2019, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Marshall-Shadeland, Pittsburgh, PA
31,358 posts, read 69,973,900 times
Reputation: 17052
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
Again, Penn Plaza was a 312-unit apartment complex. That's something entirely different from people tricking out of chopped up homes in dribs and drabs every month. The rental market in Pittsburgh can deal with the latter, but the large number of very poor (largely elderly/disabled) residents being pushed out all at once meant there were just not enough apartments open in the month they needed.

Because, when it comes down to it, the trickle is mostly ignored by everyone out of both black and white neighborhoods. Why do you think East Pittsburgh has become a majority-black borough over the last 10 years? Why are places like Wilmerding, Turtle Creek, and Pitcairn well on their way? Why does the black section of Penn Hills continue to expand eastward? It's not through natural increase, and it's not just because white people are leaving. It's because black people continue to leave the East End in dribs and drabs - either due to gentrification or just escaping falling-down neighborhoods in Homewood, Wilkinsburg, etc.

When it comes down to it though, the vast majority of subsidized housing built in Pittsburgh is basically for one of two reasons.

1. It's purpose built to replace old, outdated public housing (Terrace Village, the brand-new Allegheny Dwellings, or the various projects in East Liberty which were mostly built to relocate people from the towers).

2. It's built in a largely blighted/empty area with good access to transit/jobs, where there will be a lot of demand for housing (much of the work reconstructing Crawford-Roberts, and the new projects in Homewood South).

There is absolutely nothing stopping a poor white person from living in these subsidized housing projects. Indeed, most of the "classic" housing projects in the city started out as either all white or integrated in the mid-20th century. The housing is built for low-income people irrespective of race. If white people choose not to live in them, that's their business, not the business of the city.

I think what this city at-large needs to do is to plan out a whole ton of more walkable neighborhoods so that not only the affluent will be able to enjoy them in the coming years. If the city did more to entice developers to build mixed-use mid-rise projects in the West End Village, for example, then suddenly people being displaced into neighborhoods like Elliott or Sheraden have much easier access to a walkable area than they previously did, making the sting/pinch hurt less and helping to keep those neighborhoods from sliding further downhill.

Affluent households move to walkable neighborhoods by choice because they enjoy them but they could otherwise also move to non-walkable neighborhoods by choice and drive. Meanwhile lower-income households tend to live in or move to walkable neighborhoods because they don't have access to reliable personal transportation, and, thus, need to be able to access more amenities on foot and have access to bus routes. Lower-income households both like and NEED walkable neighborhoods with good transit access whereas affluent households like such neighborhoods but don't necessarily "need" them. If we're pricing the people who need these neighborhoods out, then are we retrofitting where they're going when they're displaced?

I'm just not liking what I'm seeing not just in Pittsburgh but in our nation as a whole of this "inversion". We'll have many more cities within a couple generations that are home almost exclusively to the affluent or the poor (who qualify for subsidized housing) while those caught in the middle ("too rich" for subsidized housing but "too poor" for market-rate that the affluent are renting) are told "just move to the suburbs and shut up". That's San Francisco, NYC, and many more cities in progress (Seattle, DC, Miami, etc.)

Perhaps those areas have better-planned suburbs, but most Pittsburgh suburbs at present are NOT going to be equipped to switch from housing affluent car-dependent households to poorer transit-dependent households. Can Ross Township or Shaler Township or West Mifflin or Baldwin or Penn Hills as presently-built handle an influx of people who want or need to bike or take a bus or train to work? If not, how high do taxes need to be raised in those communities to retrofit them for the influx of lower-income households they'll be receiving?

That's not my ideal Pittsburgh in a few decades, and I'm sorry that seems to be the ideal Pittsburgh for many of you. If we don't have these difficult conversations now about zoning, land usage policy, and socioeconomics, then when is the time to have them? When it's too late, like San Francisco? Just because Pittsburgh might be 50 years away from being like that doesn't mean we shouldn't start NOW to prepare for it to possibly AVOID it.

As you said the non-Penn Plaza demographic shifts have been happening all along---just as a less-noticeable (other than my ranting) "trickle". That trickle DOES add up over time. How will that trickle affect both the city and region in another 10, 20, or 50 years? Who's planning for that so we don't become the next inversion nightmare that is San Francisco---or is that what most of you are hoping Pittsburgh becomes eventually for our grandchildren?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2019, 08:53 AM
 
Location: Marshall-Shadeland, Pittsburgh, PA
31,358 posts, read 69,973,900 times
Reputation: 17052
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghYinzer View Post
Are you advocating for this issue anywhere other than on the internet?
I mean tagging Deb Gross in things on social media certainly hasn't helped, and given that she was just re-elected in a landslide I'm thinking my fellow neighbors in District 7 don't think gentrification is occurring. If they did they may have voted for her opponent who was more attuned to this being a priority. If they do know it's occurring and think it's a "good" thing because, as homeowners, they can be greedy and keep riding the wave up and up and up while renters suffer, then that's just pure greed and isn't how "real Pittsburghers" were advertised to me prior to moving here.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2019, 08:56 AM
 
Location: Brookline
2,953 posts, read 2,305,549 times
Reputation: 3518
I think this entire conversation revolves around the uproar over Penn Plaza, which is an outlier in the situation but is being stood up as the norm. Both white and black poor have been moving out of these areas due to rising rents/taxes, but Penn Plaza was elderly/disable, black/white, and taken down only to be replaced by a Whole Foods. Anyone who cant see the horrible optics around that and then understand the reason for the blow back is being purposefully obtuse.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2019, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Brookline
2,953 posts, read 2,305,549 times
Reputation: 3518
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
I mean tagging Deb Gross in things on social media certainly hasn't helped, and given that she was just re-elected in a landslide I'm thinking my fellow neighbors in District 7 don't think gentrification is occurring. If they did they may have voted for her opponent who was more attuned to this being a priority. If they do know it's occurring and think it's a "good" thing because, as homeowners, they can be greedy and keep riding the wave up and up and up while renters suffer, then that's just pure greed and isn't how "real Pittsburghers" were advertised to me prior to moving here.
Isnt Deb Gross the one who sponsored the affordable housing initiative in her district?

What kind of "real-Pittsburghers" were advertised to you? The kind that are bad at math or just so nice that they would take a low offer on selling their house to keep prices down? That isnt how the real world works, not even in Pittsburgh.
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-26-2019, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Marshall-Shadeland, Pittsburgh, PA
31,358 posts, read 69,973,900 times
Reputation: 17052
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghYinzer View Post
I think this entire conversation revolves around the uproar over Penn Plaza, which is an outlier in the situation but is being stood up as the norm. Both white and black poor have been moving out of these areas due to rising rents/taxes, but Penn Plaza was elderly/disable, black/white, and taken down only to be replaced by a Whole Foods. Anyone who cant see the horrible optics around that and then understand the reason for the blow back is being purposefully obtuse.
No. It was just a tidal wave instead of a trickle.

Annually the trickle adds up to a tidal wave, but that 365 days of a trickle isn't as "sexy" for media and political attention/grandstanding as that one tidal wave. Working-class whites and working-class blacks are displaced daily---quietly---in smaller numbers. The households I know who have been priced out of my neighborhood left quietly because they figured it was "expected" of them to do so.

Eschaton left Lawrenceville quietly because it was expected of him to do so.

If my partner and I split neither of us can afford to live alone in our neighborhood anymore, so, we, too, will just be expected to find cheaper studios in Carrick or Sheraden and leave quietly, too.

For some reason instead of also thinking it was "expected" of them to also quietly get out of the way of affluent white social progress those at Penn Plaza decided "Nope!" and took a stand. In one sense I applaud them for that because it worked in the sense that they received buyouts, empathy, and relocation assistance to be rehomed as close as possible, but on the other hand of course I'm going to be jealous on behalf of those of us who were quietly displaced and/or are in danger of being quietly displaced who will get nothing from the mayor or media or techies or developers the way they did because instead of being kicked out unit by unit every other day they were kicked out all at once.

The tidal wave had more "pull" than the trickle does on any given day. Nobody talks about the trickle, and now that I'm trying to talk about the trickle people want me to go away because the trickle is unpleasant. The trickle isn't "in your face" like the tidal wave of Penn Plaza was. The trickle is ignored. The trickle, if left ignored, will turn this city into San Francisco someday. Is that the Pittsburgh we should want for our grandchildren, though? I don't want that for my baby niece. Apparently most (all?) on here are homeowners and ARE in favor of that so the homes they bought for $150,000 today can be worth $400,000 when they want to cash out and retire. Renters? What do we get out of this "progress", exactly?
Rate this post positively Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Pittsburgh
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top