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Old 07-23-2019, 05:34 PM
 
Location: Great White North Hills
11,369 posts, read 14,240,918 times
Reputation: 9040

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moby Hick View Post
I've heard lots of good things about having money.

So have I.
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Old 07-23-2019, 06:37 PM
 
Location: Weirton, W. Va.
338 posts, read 125,239 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PghYinzer View Post
Just to be clear, the problems you are complaining about are because of the lack of forced mergers, yet you use an example of a forced merger you say was unjust to rail against our areas inability to force mergers. Did I get that right?
Iím complaining that there isnít public outcry to force these entities to work together and come up with a plan to fix critical infrastructure and public health issues such as flooding. And pointing out a merger to make one water authority to fix this problem wonít happen because of botched mergers of the past coupled with the lack of public trust. Resulting in the reason Allegheny county has 130 separate governments because nobody trusts the city and county back then or in present day to do their job and provide services.


In a perfect world these entities probably should be merged. Other regions it has worked. However, history has shown you canít trust the city or the county to take control and do the right thing.
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Old 07-23-2019, 08:08 PM
 
Location: Brookline
2,702 posts, read 2,047,779 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsburghaccuweather View Post
Iím complaining that there isnít public outcry to force these entities to work together and come up with a plan to fix critical infrastructure and public health issues such as flooding. And pointing out a merger to make one water authority to fix this problem wonít happen because of botched mergers of the past coupled with the lack of public trust. Resulting in the reason Allegheny county has 130 separate governments because nobody trusts the city and county back then or in present day to do their job and provide services.


In a perfect world these entities probably should be merged. Other regions it has worked. However, history has shown you canít trust the city or the county to take control and do the right thing.
I tend to think its because these tiny little fiefdoms have convinced their residents that barely being able to fund three part time police officers is better than merging with the big bad city/county or a neighboring borough/township/municipality. They want autonomy but many of them truly canít afford it, so it continues to slide, and then they are left so desperate that they either stop services or beg for a merger, all the while people are leaving because the quality of life there drops. So the less services you are able to offer the less people want to live there, and in turn the last revenue you bring in to fund the already dwindling services. Its a combination of a power hungry leaders and residents too blind to even see what is best for them. So if it is a lack of trust, its a false lack of trust (which has no basis in reality as city services are just as good if not better than these failing little areas) that has nothing to do with a merger that occurred 112 years ago.
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Old Yesterday, 06:27 AM
 
Location: Weirton, W. Va.
338 posts, read 125,239 times
Reputation: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghYinzer View Post
I tend to think its because these tiny little fiefdoms have convinced their residents that barely being able to fund three part time police officers is better than merging with the big bad city/county or a neighboring borough/township/municipality. They want autonomy but many of them truly canít afford it, so it continues to slide, and then they are left so desperate that they either stop services or beg for a merger, all the while people are leaving because the quality of life there drops. So the less services you are able to offer the less people want to live there, and in turn the last revenue you bring in to fund the already dwindling services. Its a combination of a power hungry leaders and residents too blind to even see what is best for them. So if it is a lack of trust, its a false lack of trust (which has no basis in reality as city services are just as good if not better than these failing little areas) that has nothing to do with a merger that occurred 112 years ago.
Well if it doesnít have to do with the merger 112 years ago then why havenít the state laws become more lax on mergers since? The north side is a much different setup than the rest of Pittsburgh the streets are more of a grid system on the lower portion. The really nice housing is much different than the rest of the city. And again the merger happened 112 years ago, but it didnít benefit the residents of Allegheny City. You can take a drive through most of the neighborhoods outside of the Mexican war Streets , Allegheny west and half of Manchester and see for yourself. The north side had a population of 150,000. Now is there even 40,000 people living on there anymore?

Riverview Park is a large city park and it was gorgeous. Pittsburgh let it go. All the great views were grown in and the fire damaged park house stayed that way for years before the city repaired it. Now the city is looking for tax increase because they have no money to care for the city parks.

The north side was where all of the money was. And if you look at it today compared to what it was before the merger it isnít even close to a shell of its former self.

Thatís why you donít see mergers and itís harder to gain the public trust. If Pittsburgh was responsible and did the right thing from the very beginning we wouldnít have duplication there is today.

While I agree there probably needs to be mergers and one joint water authority it just wonít ever happen. If you said PWSA to most outsiders and city residents the first thing that comes to mind isnít something positive.
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Old Yesterday, 06:53 AM
 
Location: Etna, PA
1,424 posts, read 862,805 times
Reputation: 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by PghYinzer View Post
I tend to think its because these tiny little fiefdoms have convinced their residents that barely being able to fund three part time police officers is better than merging with the big bad city/county or a neighboring borough/township/municipality. They want autonomy but many of them truly canít afford it, so it continues to slide, and then they are left so desperate that they either stop services or beg for a merger, all the while people are leaving because the quality of life there drops. So the less services you are able to offer the less people want to live there, and in turn the last revenue you bring in to fund the already dwindling services. Its a combination of a power hungry leaders and residents too blind to even see what is best for them. So if it is a lack of trust, its a false lack of trust (which has no basis in reality as city services are just as good if not better than these failing little areas) that has nothing to do with a merger that occurred 112 years ago.
No. Absolutely not, absolutely untrue.
Etna Public Works does a better job at clearing our roads than the City does at clearing theirs. The comparison isn't even close.

Etna Police are INFINITELY more responsive. City police can't even solve half of the murders and don't even bother responding to quality of life crimes. Some of PPS finest 'students' tried to throw something at me through my open drivers side window from their school bus - they missed, but the noise of the impact was loud enough that I initially thought my windshield was cracked. I had to twist the arm of the police to even get them to take a report about it. Another time, my son and I found someone's debit card on the South Side. I didn't know if this person had just been mugged the night before or not. I wanted to teach my son how to be a good citizen. So we drove to the police station in Allentown to turn in the card. The cops didn't have anything in their system about it and gave the card back to me!

PWSA - can't even send out bills competently. I have no complaints about my experience with the Hampton-Shaler Water Authority.

Municipal responsiveness.. I can e-mail the Borough Manager or Chief of Police and get a response within a day that directly addresses my question/concern/request. Try that in the City of Pittsburgh, unless you're politically connected.

School districts - again, not even close between Shaler and PPS.


I agree that some small boroughs can't stand alone, and the key to effectiveness is to regionally share resources. Etna works closely with Sharpsburg and Millvale regarding regional planning. Multiple municipalities make up the Shaler Area School District. Multiple municipalities are served by the Hampton Shaler Water Authority. Multiple municipalities contract with Shaler-Hampton EMS. Local public works departments help each other during emergencies. Same for local police departments.


The answer isn't to build a fence around small municipalities.
But the answer also isnt to surrender sovereignty and be absorbed by a megalith like the City of Pittsburgh. And I simply cant accept the argument that public services provided by the City are equal to public services provided by suburban municipalities - they're not. They're on vastly different scales, and therefore of vastly different qualities.
I believe that the answer is to continue to explore voluntary regional planning and collaborate on sharing of resources.
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Old Yesterday, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,470 posts, read 11,970,443 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsburghaccuweather View Post
The north side was where all of the money was. And if you look at it today compared to what it was before the merger it isnít even close to a shell of its former self.
To be fair, while they happened close to one another, the merger was not the cause of the end of the North Side as the locus of wealth. In the 1890s the completion of electric streetcar systems opened up Shadyside, North Oakland, Friendship, East Liberty, etc to mass settlement by the upper-middle class professional population of Pittsburgh, which rendered the older "horsecar suburbs" of the Mexican War Streets, Allegheny West, and Manchester passe. I think this would have happened even if Allegheny City had remained independent. It's also likely that another event which caused the East End to take off like a rocket - the movement of the major cultural institutions to Oakland - would have happened even in the absence of the merger.

I do think it's true that if Allegheny City stayed independent it probably would be in better shape today however. An independent city might have been better able to defend itself against the mess of highways which crisscross it. The dynamics of white flight would likely have been totally different - though it's hard to say exactly how. Old Allegheny City would likely still have been trashed however - my understanding is local residents were asking for it.
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Old Yesterday, 07:43 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,359,031 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by pittsburghaccuweather View Post
Well if it doesnít have to do with the merger 112 years ago then why havenít the state laws become more lax on mergers since? The north side is a much different setup than the rest of Pittsburgh the streets are more of a grid system on the lower portion. The really nice housing is much different than the rest of the city. And again the merger happened 112 years ago, but it didnít benefit the residents of Allegheny City. You can take a drive through most of the neighborhoods outside of the Mexican war Streets , Allegheny west and half of Manchester and see for yourself. The north side had a population of 150,000. Now is there even 40,000 people living on there anymore?

Riverview Park is a large city park and it was gorgeous. Pittsburgh let it go. All the great views were grown in and the fire damaged park house stayed that way for years before the city repaired it. Now the city is looking for tax increase because they have no money to care for the city parks.

The north side was where all of the money was. And if you look at it today compared to what it was before the merger it isnít even close to a shell of its former self.

Thatís why you donít see mergers and itís harder to gain the public trust. If Pittsburgh was responsible and did the right thing from the very beginning we wouldnít have duplication there is today.

While I agree there probably needs to be mergers and one joint water authority it just wonít ever happen. If you said PWSA to most outsiders and city residents the first thing that comes to mind isnít something positive.
I agree with much of what you said, with the exception of Riverview Park which got much needed attention during the Ravenstahl (native north sider) administration. During his time the park received an overhaul of the Chapel and attention to other areas as well. Sadly, there are now 3 active landslides at least, two of them are threatening the one way road through the park and I fear if they aren't rectified soon the road will be closed.
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Old Yesterday, 07:50 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh
5,926 posts, read 7,047,918 times
Reputation: 8689
Frick Park had a burned out building there for years. All the parks have landslides (there's a road shut in Schenley Park right now because of one). The difference is the giant chips on some shoulders.
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Old Yesterday, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,470 posts, read 11,970,443 times
Reputation: 10573
Quote:
Originally Posted by norcider View Post
I agree with much of what you said, with the exception of Riverview Park which got much needed attention during the Ravenstahl (native north sider) administration. During his time the park received an overhaul of the Chapel and attention to other areas as well. Sadly, there are now 3 active landslides at least, two of them are threatening the one way road through the park and I fear if they aren't rectified soon the road will be closed.
I'm optimistic now that Darlene Harris is going to be off City Council there will be some more movement for the North Side. She was such an impediment to getting anything accomplished.
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Old Yesterday, 08:00 AM
 
1,879 posts, read 1,359,031 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moby Hick View Post
Frick Park had a burned out building there for years. All the parks have landslides (there's a road shut in Schenley Park right now because of one). The difference is the giant chips on some shoulders.
The issue with Riverview is that there's essentially one main road that goes through the park as a big loop and the slide is really bad, about a third of the road is collapsed in one spot with saw horses keeping people from going over the edge. Just within the last month another one started about 25 feet from the other, no signs of it being addresses so far except for more saw horses. If that road is closed the park will suffer, at least from motor vehicle access. I'd imagine it could be kept passable for cyclists and joggers.
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