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Old Today, 08:29 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,476 posts, read 11,975,150 times
Reputation: 10577

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Quote:
Originally Posted by norcider View Post
I don't see the Hill gentrifying ever. It took an art gallery, an Indian restaurant and a coffee shop and proximity to Friendship/Bloomfield to begin the gentrification of Garfield and the Hill is too isolated despite being the keystone of Pittsburgh.
The gentrification of Garfield is a bit overplayed. People need to remember Penn Avenue is the border between Garfield and Bloomfield/Friendship. In a lot of ways what happened is that Penn got "annexed" by Bloomfield/Friendship. There's not much change in the residential blocks of Garfield more than two blocks back.

It also took decades for Garfield to get to its current point. I mean, when I first moved to Pittsburgh, People's was already on Penn, and there was an indie music venue (Garfield Artworks) and a couple of galleries. It was much more of a slow boil than Lawrenceville, which changed dramatically in like a five-year period.

If the Hill District gentrifies, the Middle Hill will basically be the last area to go, save for Bedford Dwellings. I mean.

1. The Lower Hill is already somewhat racially/economically mixed in the Crawford Square area, and will probably get moreso after the deck park and new development improves connectivity.

2. Terrace Village was already plurality white in 2010 due to a a combination of new Pitt dorms and Oak Hill being a lot less heavily black than Aliquippa Terrace was.

3. The Upper Hill is more economically/racially diverse already, having a few wealthy white streets like Andover Terrace. It's close to Pitt's campus, and even has its own direct bus line into Oakland. Perhaps most importantly, there's very few protected low-income housing units up there, which makes the process of gentrification much easier.

But the Middle Hill/Bedford Dwellings is basically the "deepest in" portion of the Hill. Worst access to Downtown/Oakland, poorest, most heavily black, etc. You would expect it to be the last place to "turn."
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Old Today, 09:07 AM
 
Location: Etna, PA
1,432 posts, read 863,467 times
Reputation: 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by szug-bot View Post
Those places are hampered by the traffic - there is too much of it for most people's liking. Those places are too inner city. It has nothing to do with blackness, but more with the perception of personal safety, drug activity, and the like.
It hasn't stopped the new construction of the Flats on Fifth building.
It hasn't stopped the flipping of the old high school into the Fifth Avenue School Lofts.
Traffic? There's no traffic within the Hill. None. Traffic only exists on Fifth, Forbes, Herron, Bigelow, and Centre. Webster, Wylie, and Bedford are deserted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goodjules View Post
I agree. It's an excellent location. It's less than a mile from PPG Arena, super close to downtown and an easy trip to the east end. I belong to the YMCA on Centre so I'm there a few times a week and I'm amazed it hasn't happened yet. I can't help but think it's too good a location to stay run down for long. Time will tell, but my money's on a comeback. Maybe not a Lawrenceville level comeback, but I wouldn't rule it out.
Glad to see that I'm not the only one who sees this.
I'm in the Middle Hill five days a week. I see the potential on a daily basis.

Quote:
Originally Posted by norcider View Post
the Hill is too isolated despite being the keystone of Pittsburgh.
This forum was bullish for a longtime about Troy Hill. That neighborhood is a heck of a lot more isolated than the Hill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bradjl2009 View Post
Considering how much tech employees make, there's plenty of other places within a ten minute drive of the Strip that those people will go to first before they'd ever consider Middle Hill....
Such as where?
Of course the tech workers arent going to buy an existing house in the Hill.
What I'm saying is that developers are going to build new condo buildings in the Hill because its so centrally located - it is a good location for tech workers in the Strip, downtown workers, and hospital workers in Oakland or Uptown (Mercy's expanding campus). Its also going to be very close to the BRT system through Uptown - thus they wont even have to drive to Oakland, they can hop on the BRT in its dedicated lane and be at work in five minutes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
If the Hill District gentrifies, the Middle Hill will basically be the last area to go, save for Bedford Dwellings. I mean.

1. The Lower Hill is already somewhat racially/economically mixed in the Crawford Square area, and will probably get moreso after the deck park and new development improves connectivity.

2. Terrace Village was already plurality white in 2010 due to a a combination of new Pitt dorms and Oak Hill being a lot less heavily black than Aliquippa Terrace was.

3. The Upper Hill is more economically/racially diverse already, having a few wealthy white streets like Andover Terrace. It's close to Pitt's campus, and even has its own direct bus line into Oakland. Perhaps most importantly, there's very few protected low-income housing units up there, which makes the process of gentrification much easier.

But the Middle Hill/Bedford Dwellings is basically the "deepest in" portion of the Hill. Worst access to Downtown/Oakland, poorest, most heavily black, etc. You would expect it to be the last place to "turn."
Lower Hill is already pretty set due to recent redevelopment of that neighborhood.
Upper Hill has a different feel to the rest of the Hill. Its still an intact neighborhood.
Middle Hill is largely empty. As you've established - of the few who do live there, many of them are poor black renters. Who easier to push out?

Some condos are gonna be built up there on top of the Hill with great views, the police station is there, access to all of the hot neighborhoods is built in, soon-to-be excellent connection to public transit (the Yuppie Express / BRT), walkable, bikeable... there'll be a few minorities allowed to stick around - they'll be the token representatives so that the wealthy Progressives who move in can pat themselves on the back that they didnt displace all previous residents and they can brag about living in a diverse neighborhood...
the Middle Hill is gonna be the home of brogrammers and young doctors.
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Old Today, 09:23 AM
gg
 
Location: Pittsburgh
17,969 posts, read 18,303,391 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zalewskimm View Post
Wow, yes good idea. Why must green space by built on. Just enforce the code regarding building upkeep. At least the Hill has some character left. I would hate to see greedy house flippers profit here.
I think green space is nice and the Hill is a great place for it. Needs to be trees planted, not section 8 stuff. Why shouldn't current residents have some nice areas to enjoy. I like the term re-wilding. Better than more crappy places being build that will add crime. The Hill doesn't have a ton of crime anymore. Seems more old people living there.
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Old Today, 09:38 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,476 posts, read 11,975,150 times
Reputation: 10577
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4 View Post
Lower Hill is already pretty set due to recent redevelopment of that neighborhood.
Upper Hill has a different feel to the rest of the Hill. Its still an intact neighborhood.
Middle Hill is largely empty. As you've established - of the few who do live there, many of them are poor black renters. Who easier to push out?

Some condos are gonna be built up there on top of the Hill with great views, the police station is there, access to all of the hot neighborhoods is built in, soon-to-be excellent connection to public transit (the Yuppie Express / BRT), walkable, bikeable... there'll be a few minorities allowed to stick around - they'll be the token representatives so that the wealthy Progressives who move in can pat themselves on the back that they didnt displace all previous residents and they can brag about living in a diverse neighborhood...
the Middle Hill is gonna be the home of brogrammers and young doctors.
I'm sorry, but I can't disagree with this more strongly.

The future Middle Hill is probably going to be less overwhelmingly black and poor, but it's going to be a majority black, relatively poor neighborhood for decades to come. When you have a situation where the majority of units being built are set aside for low-income people. The majority of those low-income people will be black, as will many of the people renting the market-rate units (because a lot of white folks are scared to live around poor black people.

I mean, let's look at the closest possible analogue to what you suggest - East Liberty. It's been getting whiter since 2010 for sure, due to things like the closure of Penn Plaza, the opening of a few new apartment buildings within neighborhood boundaries (Coda on Centre, Walnut on Penn/Highland), and the slow trickle out of the older buildings. But at the same time it's had a massive amount of new low/mixed income units have come on (everything between Centre and Broad, East Liberty Place North/South, various little infill projects by, etc). Even more affordable housing is planned, such as behind the library and on a series of vacant lots on N Saint Clair. ELDI has been carefully managing things since the towers came down to ensure the number of overall low income units does not fall, even as the total number of units rises (Penn Plaza excepted). East Liberty will probably still be about a 50/50 neighborhood in 2020, and will likely stabilize around that level. Not to mention most of the "whitening" has taken place in the areas south of Penn Avenue which had barely any residents or were already majority white in 2010.

East Liberty, however, had a lot going for it that the Hill District did not. It was way more architecturally intact, it had great transit access (the Downtown/Oakland BRT line won't be walkable from the Hill District unless you're SCR), and it had a still mostly intact business district. The Middle Hill is mostly gone, both in terms of commercial amenities and residential housing stock, and virtually everything that is built is with a heavy government assist and targeting low-income renters. You need to hit an inflection where market-rate development is possible in order to attract yuppies (provided there's no cute old houses to rehab, and the Hill mostly lacks those) and it's unclear to me the Middle Hill will ever get there. It will go from being a blighted poor neighborhood to mostly-rebuilt poor neighborhood.
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Old Today, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
5,974 posts, read 7,341,634 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
The gentrification of Garfield is a bit overplayed. People need to remember Penn Avenue is the border between Garfield and Bloomfield/Friendship. In a lot of ways what happened is that Penn got "annexed" by Bloomfield/Friendship. There's not much change in the residential blocks of Garfield more than two blocks back.

It also took decades for Garfield to get to its current point. I mean, when I first moved to Pittsburgh, People's was already on Penn, and there was an indie music venue (Garfield Artworks) and a couple of galleries. It was much more of a slow boil than Lawrenceville, which changed dramatically in like a five-year period.

"
I had a friend who lived in Garfield until just two months ago for 11 years, and yeah, you're right. I didn't really notice too much difference in the residential parts of the neighborhood not near Penn Ave between 2008 and 2019. Penn Ave is much nicer though since it was reconstructed.
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Old Today, 09:51 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA
5,974 posts, read 7,341,634 times
Reputation: 3741
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4 View Post
Such as where?
Of course the tech workers arent going to buy an existing house in the Hill.
What I'm saying is that developers are going to build new condo buildings in the Hill because its so centrally located - it is a good location for tech workers in the Strip, downtown workers, and hospital workers in Oakland or Uptown (Mercy's expanding campus). Its also going to be very close to the BRT system through Uptown - thus they wont even have to drive to Oakland, they can hop on the BRT in its dedicated lane and be at work in five minutes.
Let's see, Google maps has the below places at 10 minutes or less of a drive from Pamela's in the Strip:
Bloomfield
Lower and Central Lawrenceville
Polish Hill
Troy Hill
East Allegheny
Allegheny West
Mexican War Streets
Spring Hill/Garden

Yeah, no one is going to be rushing to build condos that will interest high or many middle income people in the Hill for a very long time to come....
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Old Today, 09:53 AM
 
Location: Polish Hill, Pittsburgh, PA
30,268 posts, read 67,435,389 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
(the Downtown/Oakland BRT line won't be walkable from the Hill District unless you're SCR)
I think more people should walk greater distances. It is 2.4 miles door-to-door between my apartment and my office. I walk it most days unless I'm not feeling well or if the weather looks exceptionally inclement. To me if I lived at, say, Centre & Kirkpatrick, then, yes, the BRT would most certainly be a doable walk---it's a 0.6-mile (~11-minute) walk from the library in the Hill to the Fifth Avenue School Lofts. I don't understand why so many people refuse to walk more than 1/4-mile to their destinations.

EDIT: Oh, and it's only a 5-minute bike ride between the heart of the Hill District and the BRT. I don't see why someone wouldn't want to live at Centre & Kirkpatrick, ride their bike to the BRT, load their bike onto the front of the bus, and then ride the bus 5 minutes to their office in Oakland.
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Old Today, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Etna, PA
1,432 posts, read 863,467 times
Reputation: 1593
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
I think more people should walk greater distances. It is 2.4 miles door-to-door between my apartment and my office. I walk it most days unless I'm not feeling well or if the weather looks exceptionally inclement. To me if I lived at, say, Centre & Kirkpatrick, then, yes, the BRT would most certainly be a doable walk---it's a 0.6-mile (~11-minute) walk from the library in the Hill to the Fifth Avenue School Lofts. I don't understand why so many people refuse to walk more than 1/4-mile to their destinations.

EDIT: Oh, and it's only a 5-minute bike ride between the heart of the Hill District and the BRT. I don't see why someone wouldn't want to live at Centre & Kirkpatrick, ride their bike to the BRT, load their bike onto the front of the bus, and then ride the bus 5 minutes to their office in Oakland.
Yup. Especially with the new electric bike bikeshare that the City is planning.

I also walk a mile between the Hill and my office everyday.
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Old Today, 10:10 AM
 
489 posts, read 191,962 times
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I'll comment on the walking thing. I think there can be 3 things, at least for me. I didnt grow up in the city, where I lived nothing was close so you just always drove somewhere and it isn't your first thought to walk unless it is around the corner. That is just a habit though and if you want can break it. For me it is more so the time aspect, our lives are so busy anymore that the extra 30+ min to walk there are just better things I can do with that time. Plus you take the flexibility out of your options if you walk. Like if you walk to work, then during the day something comes up or you change your mind about going somewhere after work you have to walk home to get your car. I'd walk if I knew the weather was going to be nice and I knew I had zero commitments that day. Same goes for the bike but given the time thing is less I'd be more inclined to bike except for these darn hills.
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Old Today, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
12,476 posts, read 11,975,150 times
Reputation: 10577
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteelCityRising View Post
I think more people should walk greater distances. It is 2.4 miles door-to-door between my apartment and my office. I walk it most days unless I'm not feeling well or if the weather looks exceptionally inclement. To me if I lived at, say, Centre & Kirkpatrick, then, yes, the BRT would most certainly be a doable walk---it's a 0.6-mile (~11-minute) walk from the library in the Hill to the Fifth Avenue School Lofts. I don't understand why so many people refuse to walk more than 1/4-mile to their destinations.

EDIT: Oh, and it's only a 5-minute bike ride between the heart of the Hill District and the BRT. I don't see why someone wouldn't want to live at Centre & Kirkpatrick, ride their bike to the BRT, load their bike onto the front of the bus, and then ride the bus 5 minutes to their office in Oakland.
I'm not saying that people shouldn't walk that distance, I'm just saying they won't. Except maybe for portions of the Lower Hill which aren't far away from Fifth, like the lower part of Diwnwiddie. But it's like a 20-minute walk from 2500 Wylie to the corner of Fifth and Dinwiddie. No one is going to walk that far as part of their regular commute, they'll get a surface bus which stops on Centre or Bedford.

Speaking personally, I have two different options - a slow route which takes 35 minutes during rush hour and taking the P1 from Downtown to East Liberty (which takes 11 minutes) then walking for about 35 minutes. If I bus in, I always take the "local route" because the bus stop is right outside my house, and you can't beat that. I will take the P1 home, even though it's a longer commute in total, but only in nice weather. But I'm a 40-year old in reasonably good shape who walks a lot. Not everyone is me.
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