I feel sorry for homeowners in Penn Hills... (Plum: for sale, rent)

[Seeker654321]

Here's why:

I rent in Penn Hills, but will be moving out of state shortly. (The job market in Western Pennsylvania is a complete joke.)

But the residents of Penn Hills with their houses on the market aren't going anywhere. There are a TON of houses up for sale in Penn Hills, but no one is buying.

Granted, the housing market is slow everywhere, but when I visit Murrysville, Penn Township and other communities in Westmoreland County, I don't see the number of houses up for sale that I see in Penn Hills. Even Plum Borough, in Allegheny County, doesn't have the surplus of houses up for sale that Penn Hills has.

And the worst part is that a good many of these houses in Penn Hills have been on the market for some time -- in some cases, for at least two or three years.

Nobody with an iota of sense would move into Penn Hills. Certainly nobody with children would move to Penn Hills if they had a clue.

The schools are a joke, and the property values are on the decline. The 'Unity in the Community' event was cancelled this year after kids attending the event last year trashed Linton Middle School to the tune of $75,000, robbed a vendor and started several fights.

I'm lucky...I don't have a house to try to sell in Penn Hills. Not so for many others in Penn Hills.

[Bazzwell]

Just did some quick checking as I don't normally follow Penn Hills. Wow! For a listing search for strictly Penn Hills we have...

418 properties for sale total with 275 being priced at under $100k.

49 additional properties are marked "contingent" with 33 of those under $100k.

48 are "under contract" with 44 of those at under $100k.

138 "solds" reported since January 1/2008 with 107 of those priced under $100k.

That's 515 properties total on the market, contingent or under contract, 352 of which are under $100k. Ouch .

[COPANUT]

White flight.

[pitt_transplant]

Sad but true...And they said you shouldnt spank kids...yeh right..spare the rod = spoil the child..granny was right.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pitt_transplant

And they said you shouldnt spank kids...yeh right..spare the rod = spoil the child..granny was right.

I'm not sure how that is relevant, but I wanted to note the available research suggests striking children does not help them become more self-disciplined or less anti-social. Rather, far more effective is consistent rewards (e.g., in the form of praise and attention) for positive behavior. And that approach, of course, actually requires a lot more work and self-discipline from parents than simply striking children when they are misbehaving.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I'm not sure how that is relevant, but I wanted to note the available research suggests striking children does not help them become more self-disciplined or less anti-social. Rather, far more effective is consistent rewards (e.g., in the form of praise and attention) for positive behavior. And that approach, of course, actually requires a lot more work and self-discipline from parents than simply striking children when they are misbehaving.

It's no different than training a dog.....a careful mix of treats, encouragement, yelling, and rolled up newspaper.

Constant yelling will fail just as quickly as constant treats.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by zip95

It's no different than training a dog.....a careful mix of treats, encouragement, yelling, and rolled up newspaper.

Constant yelling will fail just as quickly as constant treats.

Actually, raising children well is very different from training a dog well.

Dogs are pack animals, and when training a dog part of what you are trying to do is establish that you are the dominant member of their pack. Once you have done that, they should be pretty obedient to you, and of course they are usually intelligent enough to learn a lot of rules and commands.

Human beings, in contrast, are much more complex creatures, and in large civil societies, humans must be self-disciplining. So while yelling at and hitting your children may well help establish your personal dominance over them, it will not serve them well once they have to function by themselves in civil society.

Edit: And I meant to mention that humans, like most primates, tend to develop their behavioral patterns by imitating the behavior of the people around them, including of course their parents. So if you discipline your children by yelling at them and hitting them, what you are doing is encouraging your children to develop the habit of resolving conflicts with other people by yelling at them or hitting them. In other words, "do as I say not as I do" will never work with children, because they learn primarily through imitation and not through what you tell them.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Actually, raising children well is very different from training a dog well.

Dogs are pack animals, and when training a dog part of what you are trying to do is establish that you are the dominant member of their pack. Once you have done that, they should be pretty obedient to you, and of course they are usually intelligent enough to learn a lot of rules and commands.

Human beings, in contrast, are much more complex creatures, and in large civil societies, humans must be self-disciplining. So while yelling at and hitting your children may well help establish your personal dominance over them, it will not serve them well once they have to function by themselves in civil society.

Edit: And I meant to mention that humans, like most primates, tend to develop their behavioral patterns by imitating the behavior of the people around them, including of course their parents. So if you discipline your children by yelling at them and hitting them, what you are doing is encouraging your children to develop the habit of resolving conflicts with other people by yelling at them or hitting them. In other words, "do as I say not as I do" will never work with children, because they learn primarily through imitation and not through what you tell them.

Actually, every high level social analysis of the last 5 thousand years would disagree with you.....rewards and punishments...This is probably one of the most basic and fundamental ideas regarding human nature.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by zip95

Actually, every high level social analysis of the last 5 thousand years would disagree with you.....rewards and punishments...This is probably one of the most basic and fundamental ideas regarding human nature.

With all due respect, that is incorrect. It is true that throughout history there have been people who have tried to reduce human development to a very simple level, analogous to the training of animals like rats or dogs. But also going at least back to the Ancient Greeks, and undoubtedly beyond, there have been people who recognized that human beings are more complex creatures than that, and that humans have unique developmental needs (indeed, all animal species have unique developmental needs, but that is a different topic).

However, it has only been in the last century or so that scientists have seriously studied human development using standard empirical methods. Among other things, they have found out what I noted above: like most primates, human beings during childhood learn a great deal of behavior through imitation, and also human beings learn much better from positive reinforcement than from negative reinforcement. Indeed, even B.F. Skinner, proponent of "radical behaviorialism", agreed with this latter proposition as a result of his research, and thus proposed reforming schools to eliminate punitive discipline and provide more positive reinforcement.

In general, those relatively recent findings about human development are a large part of why the overwhelming scientific consensus today is that yelling at or hitting children is counterproductive to developing civil and self-disciplined adults. And the fact that some people in history thought differently is no more important than that some people in history thought the Sun went around the Earth--in both cases, we have since learned better.

[gm1951]

I live in Florida now but grew up in Penn Hills. It used to be one of the nicest places in the city to live and the high school was considered to be one of the best in the county. There was hardly any crime to speak of and was one of the greatest places to grow up. It really makes me sad to see that the area has gone downhill so much. What happened??!!!