Pittsburgh; Llivable or Leavable? (job, home, diverse)

[IAmAngieBowie]

Raynist, yes I did. The slowdown exploded about a month ago. Until then, there were a few suitable jobs every week or two. The market is really sluggish now.

Engineers and techies who write are in the highest demand nationwide. So much so that job ads are now demanding proof of writing competency.

However, if you get a graphic design, Web development, or something like that degree, it is tough going here. Still, if you want to be a writer, it's best to get a degree in an unrelated field. Knowledge is power.

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

Well, some people feel that there is a longer-term social value in activities that don't necessarily result in immediate production.

For instance, I think one can make a reasonable argument that one of the main characteristics that separates cities which many people want to visit and live in from those which are less desirable is the presence of non-applied, non-production related activities and works, in addition to the applied, vocational activities and works which make a society productive. Take Paris, for example. People don't just pay big bucks to live in or visit Paris because it has industry and the workers who support industry - they pay big bucks to live and visit there because of the cultural activities, the artists, writers, and dancers who live there now and who have made the city what it is over time. The desirability of living in a place with culture attracts new residents, some of whom are in more "useful" fields and who make the economy grow. And the desirability of visiting a place with culture attracts tourists, some of whom will patronize the works of vocational workers, which also makes the economy grow. And the money that is generated by the more "useful" activities financially supports the cultural activities in turn.

It's a nice relationship. But if you leave out the culture part in favor of the more obviously productive part, you end up in Pittsburgh during its industrial past - "Hell with the lid taken off" and a place NOBODY wants to be, not even the vocational workers. And you end up in a place that has nothing else to offer residents once the industry dies, like Pittsburgh after the steel industry collapsed, or most of Michigan right now. As it has been pointed out many times on this forum, one of the primary reasons why Pittsburgh managed to escape more of the rust belt depression than other cities of its type is because the industrialists used the money that came from industry to create a cultural infrastructure that lasted beyond the demise of industry.

And that's why universities continue to teach fine arts, dance, music, English and all of those other fields which would seem to be "useless" to the short-sighted. Somebody has to keep writing, dancing, and painting to maintain the culture portion of the relationship, and somebody has to teach the writers, dancers, and artists how to write, dance, and paint.

Just for the record, I'm not a writer or an artist myself. I'm actually in a very applied field, likely one of the fields you would consider "useful". I just see social merit in encouraging the growth of cultural activities.

Without art, all that stuff vanishes. We're not called the creative class for nothing.

A while back there was a TV show called "How William Shatner Changed the World" (2005) and it was very funny -- and very true. They had communicators, we have cell phones. They had computers -- now look. And it's always been that way... look at HG Wells. Da Vinci!

And there's a gentleman by the name of Richard Florida, who coined the creative class name... who is positive that without creative people to back up a city the city DIES -- which is why the whole Braddock thing intrigues the hell out of me. I just wish I could get back there to check it out, but we keep getting more cleaning contracts, which is good money wise but HECK! I am ready to turn in my Sebo vac...

And then there is CoolTown Studios -- a whole website about creatives and high density housing and environmental stuff...

[Humanoid]

b/c composition has elements of math in it.

I hear this a lot and I often wonder what people mean by it. I know about each subjects and I've never get what people mean. They both involve symbolism, but I don't think symbolism = math. I suppose music is "mathematical" in the sense that sound is physical.

they pay big bucks to live and visit there because of the cultural activities, the artists, writers, and dancers who live there now and who have made the city what it is over time.

I've never known anybody that went to Paris because "the writers, etc", they go because its a beautiful place and its fun to experience. But Paris is beautify due to civil engineering, architecture and other applied arts.

The desirability of living in a place with culture

When you say "culture" what you mean is "the arts, lit etc". So what you are saying is circular. But if you use the word in its more general form, then what you're saying sounds a bit silly. Silicon Valley is popular due to its culture, but not the "arts, lit etc" sort of culture you are talking about.

and a place NOBODY wants to be, not even the vocational workers.

Last time I checked some of the most beautiful architecture in the area was built doing these period....I have a hard time believing was no "culture" during this period.

create a cultural infrastructure that lasted beyond the demise of industry.

Oh there we go, which contradicts your comments about the city during this period.

And that's why universities continue to teach fine arts, dance, music, English and all of those other fields which would seem to be "useless" to the short-sighted.

That was fun, but what you said would only make sense to someone that doesn't know economics. Universities wouldn't have the degree programs without a demand for them. So the universities are supplying the population with a service that they are demanding, all sounds good. Except the demand is artificially increased from cheaply available student loans that are given out without regard to a persons ability to pay them back.

And this is just my point, these programs are fine in smaller numbers. But the world simply doesn't need this many musicians, artists etc. Its pretty clear to me something odd is going on, in a perfect market you would except the number of people getting these degrees to more closely match the available jobs. The most obvious culprit is the student loans, but there may be more. Student loans are pretty much the only loans I know of that are given out with a complete disregard for how they will be paid back, not only that but they seem to make every effort to not tell the student how much money they are going to have to pay back. Loaning the same amount of money to an Art major vs a Physicist major makes little sense.

I try to talk people out of getting these "useless" degrees. My undergrad degree is actually one of them! But I didn't take out any debt to get it, I've seen far too many people take out way too much money getting useless degrees to have a rosy view of it. Whenever asked I discourage people from getting them.

Also, I love slippery slopes. But claiming there is an over supply of "useless" degree programs in this country is not the same as claiming writing, history etc should not be taught at all.

[Katiana]

b/c composition has elements of math in it.

I hear this a lot and I often wonder what people mean by it. I know about each subjects and I've never get what people mean. They both involve symbolism, but I don't think symbolism = math. I suppose music is "mathematical" in the sense that sound is physical.

The notes need to be put together right for the music to sound right. 3/4 time, 3/8 time, all that stuff. I don't know enough about music to go much farther, but that's the theory.

[COPANUT]

One of my best buddies is a computer semi-genius and plays a great trumpet. I believe Mr. Gates was also in the band. Hard to believe to the uneducated, like me, that there is a connection, but apparently there is one.

[Humanoid]

The notes need to be put together right for the music to sound right. 3/4 time, 3/8 time, all that stuff

The timings are just addition, and the music does need to be "put together right" there are various theories how to do that. But they aren't mathematical. In fact most of it was created before the related physics. But okay.

Hard to believe to the uneducated, like me, that there is a connection, but apparently there is one.

I assume you are referring to the music/math thing. I really don't know what people are talking about when they mention the "connection", yet I know about both subjects. Also, just to note computer science is not mathematics. One can be great in computer science and rather average in mathematics. Personally I can sleep in graduate level math classes and still get A's, but have to work much harder at computer science of the same level.

There may be some sort of correlation between music ability and ability in math, but that doesn't mean the two subjects are "connected" in any meaningful way. They could simply use similar areas of the brain. I don't know if such a correlation exists though.

[COPANUT]

Thank you for educating me.

[BrianTH]

I believe they have done some neural mapping experiments and found that playing music uses the abstract spatial-temporal reasoning parts of the brain, which in turn are also used for conceptualizing solutions to mathematical problems.

[Humanoid]

I believe they have done some neural mapping experiments and found that playing music uses the abstract spatial-temporal reasoning parts of the brain, which in turn are also used for conceptualizing solutions to mathematical problems.

Sure that sounds reasonable, I mainly don't get why people think music is "mathematical".

[onwardandupward]

Some interesting articles on music and mathematics.

Geometrical Music Theory, in Science magazine
Science/AAAS | Science Magazine: Sign In

The Mathematics of Musical Instruments, in the Mathematical Association of America Monthly:
http://www.sju.edu/~rhall/newton/article.pdf

and there are scores of articles on the neural mapping/spatial-temporal line of research linking music and math that Brian referred to - just do a Google search if you're interested.