University of Pittsburgh PA (gated, showing, work)

[zip95]

Originally Posted by likepgh

One other question, then: is Pitt's engineering and computer science faculty better than expected given where the school ranks (and do human resources officers know this if it is true)?
In other words, can we expect that a new PhD might turn down a job at a higher-ranked school (say in a midwestern college town) for a job at Pitt in order to a) live in a major city and/or b) be close to CMU faculty [and other sci/tech/engineering researchers at private companies] for possible collaboration, conversation, intellectual community, etc.

We can say that, unless you're an Ivy, professorial jobs in the sciences are so hard to get that the overwhelming majority of Ph.D's get down on their knees and thank God for any offer at all.....Engineering is a little easier.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by likepgh

One other question, then: is Pitt's engineering and computer science faculty better than expected given where the school ranks (and do human resources officers know this if it is true)?
In other words, can we expect that a new PhD might turn down a job at a higher-ranked school (say in a midwestern college town) for a job at Pitt in order to a) live in a major city and/or b) be close to CMU faculty [and other sci/tech/engineering researchers at private companies] for possible collaboration, conversation, intellectual community, etc.

I don't know enough about Pitt to speak to your first question, but I can say that there are enough other factors involved in getting a PhD and becoming an assistant professor that you could answer the second question either way. Other factors include: startup packages (equipment, your salary, grad student salary,etc.), summer salary (is it provided?), fund-raising expectations, teaching requirements, the tenure process, and the level of mentoring senior faculty members are willing to provide.

You will find that as a new faculty member you will spend alot less time doing research and a lot more time doing management and fund raising (e.g. writing NSF proposals, etc.) than you did as a grad student...

[zip95]

It seems to me there is quite a divergence in answers....which seems to imply a broad range of experiences among various technical fields. So maybe it would help if I qualify my posts with.....I have a pure-science / applied-science perspective from an excellent program at a good university.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

I will tell you that I personally know someone who did this, and for the reasons you stated (but it wasn't a midwestern college down - it was a very fancy schmancy expensive private school in New England). His Pitt career seems to be going well so far.

My guess is this will become a lot more common in the future as well, provided the cost-of-living gap between the expensive coastal cities and the interior of the country (city and small town) does not retreat back to more normal levels. I've expressed this overall theme before, but professors are a great example of people who under current conditions could expect to live quite well in those interior college towns and relatively inexpensive cities like Pittsburgh, but will be struggling to afford even a modest lifestyle in the hyperexpensive coastal cities.

So, again provided this gap isn't closed in the near future, my guess is interior universities will find they have a real recruiting advantage, and eventually that will start showing up in the rankings, which will likely create a bit of a feedback loop. And with smaller departments and programs in particular, sometimes it doesn't take much to quickly build a well-regarded program.

For example, the Pitt Philosophy Department was basically built into a top department when a bunch of people from Yale decided to look for a new home in the early 1960s. Now, they were being driven out of Yale for ideological reasons as opposed to financial concerns, but they ended up at Pitt in particular because the Mellon family was willing to support the Department financially. And I think the overall cost-of-living circumstances in the United States are likely to lead to more such exodus stories over time, again provided those circumstances aren't reversed.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

My guess is this will become a lot more common in the future as well, provided the cost-of-living gap between the expensive coastal cities and the interior of the country (city and small town) does not retreat back to more normal levels. I've expressed this overall theme before, but professors are a great example of people who under current conditions could expect to live quite well in those interior college towns and relatively inexpensive cities like Pittsburgh, but will be struggling to afford even a modest lifestyle in the hyperexpensive coastal cities.

So, again provided this gap isn't closed in the near future, my guess is interior universities will find they have a real recruiting advantage, and eventually that will start showing up in the rankings, which will likely create a bit of a feedback loop. And with smaller departments and programs in particular, sometimes it doesn't take much to quickly build a well-regarded program.

For example, the Pitt Philosophy Department was basically built into a top department when a bunch of people from Yale decided to look for a new home in the early 1960s. Now, they were being driven out of Yale for ideological reasons as opposed to financial concerns, but they ended up at Pitt in particular because the Mellon family was willing to support the Department financially. And I think the overall cost-of-living circumstances in the United States are likely to lead to more such exodus stories over time, again provided those circumstances aren't reversed.

No way....there is an oversupply of talent, and glut of 65 year old tenured professors who won't retire. I have heard of faculty searches at below average state schools that receive hundreds and hundreds of applicants. And I don't mean state school like Ohio State, I mean state school like Clarion.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by zip95

No way....there is an oversupply of talent, and glut of 65 year old tenured professors who won't retire. I have heard of faculty searches at below average state schools that receive hundreds and hundreds of applicants. And I don't mean state school like Ohio State, I mean state school like Clarion.

There is an oversupply of PhDs in many academic fields, but that is not the same thing as an oversupply of the sort of professors who tend to determine the reputation of academic programs (what are sometimes called "big name professors"). Indeed, there can only be so many of those people, due to the way academia is structured--basically, only so many people are going to have the sort of publication history, awards, and so on that create a "big name professor" in the relevant field.

And we already know this to be the case. If it was possible for any given program to easily recruit the professors it needed to be equal in reputation to any other program in the field, all programs would have an equal academic reputation (at least among peers in the field). But of course they don't have equal reputations, and therefore we know it is not the case that there is an oversupply of the sorts of professors who determine academic reputation.

[zip95]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

There is an oversupply of PhDs in many academic fields, but that is not the same thing as an oversupply of the sort of professors who tend to determine the reputation of academic programs (what are sometimes called "big name professors"). Indeed, there can only be so many of those people, due to the way academia is structured--basically, only so many people are going to have the sort of publication history, awards, and so on that create a "big name professor" in the relevant field.

And we already know this to be the case. If it was possible for any given program to easily recruit the professors it needed to be equal in reputation to any other program in the field, all programs would have an equal academic reputation (at least among peers in the field). But of course they don't have equal reputations, and therefore we know it is not the case that there is an oversupply of the sorts of professors who determine academic reputation.

If your point is that Einstein like prodigies can write their own ticket? I would have to agree with you....but that's nowhere near the norm. The overwhelming majority of Ph.D's are just poor slobs struggling to make a name for themselves.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by zip95

If your point is that Einstein like prodigies can write their own ticket? I would have to agree with you....but that's nowhere near the norm. The overwhelming majority of Ph.D's are just poor slobs struggling to make a name for themselves.

Right, which is part of why programs with excellent reputations can be built quickly, because you just need to recruit a few of those name professors (not necessarily "Einstein like prodigies", but the people with widespread recognition in their respective fields), and a disproportionate number of the entry-level people with the best shot at becoming such professors.

Again, this is nothing new--it is how the same programs maintain high reputations over time: they always make sure to having enough name professors, if necessary bribing them away from other programs, and recruiting the most promising new people. My point is just that given the recent trends in relative cost-of-living, interior universities will likely find it getting easier to bribe and recruit this reputation-making subset of professors.

[scrapp]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

My point is just that given the recent trends in relative cost-of-living, interior universities will likely find it getting easier to bribe and recruit this reputation-making subset of professors.

I agree that cost-of-living is a factor. However, if your school's administration is serious about recruiting reputation-making faculty from other schools it will make sure that cost-of-living is not a deciding factor... Living costs are likely to be more of an issue for hiring junior faculty.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by scrapp

I agree that cost-of-living is a factor. However, if your school's administration is serious about recruiting reputation-making faculty from other schools it will make sure that cost-of-living is not a deciding factor... Living costs are likely to be more of an issue for hiring junior faculty.

This of course is what universities in more expensive areas have always done--offer a bit more salary than their peers. Firms in other industries do this as well.

The problem is that over the last ten years or so, the cost-of-living difference has grown considerably in these hyperexpensive coastal cities, but salary differentials haven't kept pace, and the recent downturn in housing prices hasn't been enough to reverse that effect. Nonetheless, I expect the universities with very large endowments will be able to adjust salaries if necessary to retain and recruit top faculty, or subsidize housing, or so on. However, other universities in these areas may simply lack the resources to do so. Indeed, the top universities are partially in a national market for students, so their revenues in terms of things like tuition are somewhat constrained.

Anyway, we shall see.