Why are people moving out from Pittsburgh? (California, Riverside: insurance, houses)

[ryanco]

they seem to have a pretty popular football team...and some good bars

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by PeterRabbit

How is this an advantage? High taxes in a low cost neighborhood doesn't make sense to me. Around here a low cost neighborhood is likely to be very undesirable then the taxes just make it all that worse.

First, to clarify I meant equivalent homes in equivalent neighborhoods in two different real estate markets, such that prices can be different for comparable homes. Second, I think it is important to keep in mind that higher tax rates doesn't necessarily mean higher taxes paid.

So here is a simple example of why not. Say the tax rate in Area A is 4%, and the tax rate in equivalent Area B in another city is 2%. However, suppose that equivalent homes in Area B cost 2.5 times as much as in Area A, and that the homes in Area A and Area B are assessed in the same ratio. That means you will be paying more in property taxes on the equivalent home in Area B than in Area A, despite the lower tax rate in Area B. For example, a home assessed at $200,000 in Area A would result in $8,000 in property taxes. The equivalent in Area B (by the premises) would be assessed at $500,000, and result in $10,000 in property taxes.

Now add in the mortgage costs. For simplicity, lets say you get a mortgage for the whole amount at 6%, and that the assessment equals the price paid. Now that $200,000 home in Area costs $8,000 in property taxes plus $12,000 in financing, for a total of $20,000. In contrast, the equivalent $500,000 home in Area B costs $10,000 in property taxes plus $30,000 in financing for a total of $40,000.

Again, the basic point is just that paying a lot more for an equivalent home can more than outweigh lower property tax rates. In fact, it works the other way around too: if the local government needs $X amount in total revenues to provide its services to local property owners, then if property assessments in the area are lower, it will need to charge a higher tax rate to get $X through property taxes (which is one of many reasons to question the wisdom of property taxes). So I think it is important to note that higher property tax rates are often produced by lower property prices.

And then you also have to consider other local taxes, including state and local income and sales taxes, to really figure out your total tax burden when living somewhere. In fact, in my experience it turns out that the total taxes paid by the average person living in Pittsburgh are roughly equivalent to the total taxes paid in other comparable cities. But you still get the benefit of a lower mortgage bill.

As a final note, obviously all this is contingent on the exact numbers in question. I can say that when we were considering alternative cities recently (most notably Washington, DC), it was true that the total costs to living in what we considered equivalent homes in equivalent neighborhoods would have been much higher in the Washington area. But you really have to come up with what you personally consider comparables and then calculate the costs yourself--I gave this abstract example just to show how it can work.

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

Firstly you can find homes for under 100 grand all over the place. Secondly, I never found a house in Pittsburgh for under 100k that wasn't a complete piece of junk. In the city anything decent will run you at least 200k (And this is still an older house that hasn't been updated much). Anyhow, I looked at Pittsburgh real estate before I moved. And although its a relatively good deal for what you can get, its also not particularly cheap.


And holy jeebus. Stop with the "lack of things to do", for some people Pittsburgh really does lack things to do!!!!! Seriously, stop pretending everyone is interested in the same things. They aren't. For some the activities in Pittsburgh may be just right for others lacking. ITS RELATIVE TO THE PERSON!

I don't know where to start with my disagreements. I'll leave Los Angeles alone (I'm very familiar with it) and stick to positives. Like, the immaculate 1926 Craftsman bungalow I'm closing on next month, for under 55k. It's 3 blocks from Riverview Park on the nice side of Observatory Hill, and according to the home inspection, it's rock solid. True, I looked at a LOT of houses in that range which were falling apart, but they're out there.

I've lived in SF and Seattle and as far as quality of life goes, they can't compare to Pittsburgh. Maybe it's because I'm in my mid-30's now. Regardless, it's where I'm staying and out of the 5 cities in which I've lived, it's by far the "most livable".

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

Me thinks you don't get out much. But if you like it...thats all that matters.


I don't think housing is that cheap in Pittsburgh when you consider quality. New homes in Pittsburgh cost more or about the same as they do in many other metro areas. I don't think its fair to compare a 100 year old fixer upper to a fairly new house in another area. This is the problem the median house price in Pittsburgh is so low because the there are so many run down homes in the area.

I think Humanoid has a good point here. I have noticed, that as the housing gets newer and/or more upscale, the prices are more in line with what you would pay in say, Denver. Maybe a little lower, but not as much as it seems when you just look at the median price.

Originally Posted by creepsinc

I don't know where to start with my disagreements. I'll leave Los Angeles alone (I'm very familiar with it) and stick to positives. Like, the immaculate 1926 Craftsman bungalow I'm closing on next month, for under 55k. It's 3 blocks from Riverview Park on the nice side of Observatory Hill, and according to the home inspection, it's rock solid. True, I looked at a LOT of houses in that range which were falling apart, but they're out there.

I've lived in SF and Seattle and as far as quality of life goes, they can't compare to Pittsburgh. Maybe it's because I'm in my mid-30's now. Regardless, it's where I'm staying and out of the 5 cities in which I've lived, it's by far the "most livable".

A 1926 Craftsman bungalow, even if immaculate, would need a lot of work if it hasn't been updated. I used to be a visiting nurse, and I've been in a lot of houses. There are tons of such bungalows in metro Denver, plus my nephew lived in one in a supposedly "hip" neighborhood, a la Shadyside. The kitchens are awful! They don't have any counters at all in some cases! People didn't have counters back then. They did all their work on the kitchen table, I guess. I could go on and on. But I think you get the point.

What you do get, in the Pittsburgh burbs anyway, is more land than you get here in Colorado, in general. So you have room for that in-ground pool, a croquet field, whatever.

I'm glad you like Pittsburgh, creepsinc. Everybody has to find their niche.

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by Katiana

A 1926 Craftsman bungalow, even if immaculate, would need a lot of work if it hasn't been updated. I used to be a visiting nurse, and I've been in a lot of houses. There are tons of such bungalows in metro Denver, plus my nephew lived in one in a supposedly "hip" neighborhood, a la Shadyside. The kitchens are awful! They don't have any counters at all in some cases! People didn't have counters back then. They did all their work on the kitchen table, I guess. I could go on and on. But I think you get the point.

It depends on what you mean by updating. I don't plan on tearing out the original woodwork. I'm leaving the built-ins, which include leaded glass cabinets and a window seat. It needs a refrigerator, and I'd like to replace the electric stove with a gas one, but other than that, it's move-in (and live-in) condition. It doesn't have the biggest kitchen I've seen, but the counter space is adequate. The back yard is pretty big for the city, too. I like the charming older houses, and I'm not too keen on making it look like a cookie-cutter suburban tract home.

[Katiana]

Well, good luck to you. My nephew found himself up to his ankles in water when he took a shower b/c the plumbing needed to be cleaned out. Spare me the cookie-cutter stuff. There are bungalows like that all over Denver and the midwest. I could find my way around one in the dark because all the floor plans are exactly the same, sometimes mirror-image.

[Humanoid]

I could find my way around one in the dark because all the floor plans are exactly the same, sometimes mirror-image.

I often find it odd when people imply newer homes are "cookie-cutter" but the older ones are not. In fact this is something me and my wife argue about because she tends to like older homes. The vast majority of the old homes in Pittsburgh look just like all the other homes built in the same period. I suppose what gives it a sense that it isn't cookie-cutter is that some neighborhoods may have homes built from a variety of periods where as new developments are obviously just form one period. But still most areas in Pittsburgh have blocks of very similar homes despite being old.

I'll leave Los Angeles alone (I'm very familiar with it) and stick to positives. Like, the immaculate 1926 Craftsman bungalow I'm closing on next month, for under 55k.

You can say all you want about Los Angeles, I don't think its in any sense perfect. Regardless, I'm not going to argue about this as I can't see the home. All I know is that I looked at homes in Pittsburgh and only found crap in that price range (Although, I never looked on the North side as I had no interest in living there). Everything nice was 200k+.

[globalburgh]

There are good deals to be found in any city. In fact, Pittsburgh is the second safest place in the entire United States (among the top 50 metros) for an investment in a home. Compare that to Riverside, CA, where the real estate market sports one of the highest risks for depreciation.

Regardless, the popular perception of Pittsburgh demography is still stuck in 1982. The real estate market would not be so relatively strong if so many people were leaving Pittsburgh. Time to put the exodus myth to bed.

[subdivisions]

Originally Posted by creepsinc

I don't know where to start with my disagreements. I'll leave Los Angeles alone (I'm very familiar with it) and stick to positives. Like, the immaculate 1926 Craftsman bungalow I'm closing on next month, for under 55k. It's 3 blocks from Riverview Park on the nice side of Observatory Hill, and according to the home inspection, it's rock solid. True, I looked at a LOT of houses in that range which were falling apart, but they're out there.

I've lived in SF and Seattle and as far as quality of life goes, they can't compare to Pittsburgh. Maybe it's because I'm in my mid-30's now. Regardless, it's where I'm staying and out of the 5 cities in which I've lived, it's by far the "most livable".

No worries, Creeps. Some people on this forum have a lot of strongly held negative opinions and have a tendency to exaggerate about topics that touch upon those biases. In fact, there are many completely decent homes in Pittsburgh in the price range mentioned, especially if you like older homes and are willing to do a little work.

I bought a 1925 carriage house last year, for just under 100K, and it's been great. No major problems with plumbing, electrical, foundation or anything like that. It needed some cosmetic work, which we have been working on - this summer we've been sprucing up the yard. We get many compliments on our home from guests and neighbors and it's not "unliveable", "crap", "unacceptable" (can't remember all the other hyperbole used in this and other threads about a similar topic) or anything like that. It's a very nice older home with lots of character which needed updating and has received it and is now lovely. I'm sure the house you are buying is very similar.

I am a mid-thirties Pittsburgh transplant also. I moved here in 2003 from Colorado. Like you, I have lived many other places in the U.S. and have found Pittsburgh to be eminintly "liveable". In fact, it's my favorite place I've ever lived, and I also plan to stay for the long term. Welcome to the 'burgh, and welcome to the City-Data Forum! We could use a few more Pittsburgh cheerleaders here to balance out the negative Nellies...

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

No worries, Creeps. Some people on this forum have a lot of strongly held negative opinions and have a tendency to exaggerate about topics that touch upon those biases. In fact, there are many completely decent homes in Pittsburgh in the price range mentioned, especially if you like older homes and are willing to do a little work.

I bought a 1925 carriage house last year, for just under 100K, and it's been great. No major problems with plumbing, electrical, foundation or anything like that. It needed some cosmetic work, which we have been working on - this summer we've been sprucing up the yard. We get many compliments on our home from guests and neighbors and it's not "unliveable", "crap", "unacceptable" (can't remember all the other hyperbole used in this and other threads about a similar topic) or anything like that. It's a very nice older home with lots of character which needed updating and has received it and is now lovely. I'm sure the house you are buying is very similar.

I am a mid-thirties Pittsburgh transplant also. I moved here in 2003 from Colorado. Like you, I have lived many other places in the U.S. and have found Pittsburgh to be eminintly "liveable". In fact, it's my favorite place I've ever lived, and I also plan to stay for the long term. Welcome to the 'burgh, and welcome to the City-Data Forum! We could use a few more Pittsburgh cheerleaders here to balance out the negative Nellies...

Well -- it's such a matter of personal taste. That's why I hesitate to get involved. What one person finds charming and wonderful, another person finds just gawd-awful.

And I live in a house built in 1924.

I do agree that most houses start out cookie cutter. Most houses are in some sort of planned development where you buy a Madison, a Jefferson or a Washington, and add things like a Nixon package -- which would be taped windows with 18 inch gaps! .

50-60-70 years later you might not know that your house on Shaky lane was once part of ShakyAcres... and in that amount of time a lot of individualizing has gone on, a lot of repair work, and some updating. All that gives a neighborhood it's patina. It's flavor. And that's what we like, as old house lovers.

And sometimes those types of places fall out of favor. My favorite kind of house is a modern ranch house. Not a colonial ranch house -- a Modern ranch house. People are tearing those down as fast as they can to build the ubiquitous McMansion. And you wait -- if you live another 60 years, you will hear the buzz around those houses we now think are monstrosities.

People live in houses and people live differently. Look at the properties you see in New York City. Kitchens are teeny tiny, because you only need enough room to dish out the take out and make coffee in the AM.

I do cook and I have a nine foot counter and that's it -- and a double sink takes up part of that...., and I cope by having a sink with hot water and soap to dump and wash what I've just used if I don't need it anymore to keep some semblance of sanity in my kitchen.