Shadyside? (Pittsburgh, Bethel Park, Wilkinsburg: real estate, rental, crime rate)

[BiancaB]

I see that this is quite a long winded post, so if you don't care to read the whole intro, just skip down to the last paragraph!

----------------------------
I recently accepted a job offer in downtown Pittsburgh. My husband and I moved from Miami, FL and are now looking for a house in or near Pittsburgh. We're currently staying with family in Steubenville, OH and making the long commute to Pittsburgh.

Neither of us know a lot about Pittsburgh, but we grew up in Ohio so the area isn't completely unfamiliar. And at this point, we've been here for a couple of months. Our biggest obstacle is trying to decide which area of Pittsburgh to purchase a house in. We're a younger couple, I just graduated college (architecture) and he graduated a few years ago. He travels for work every week and is only home on the weekends. We don't have any kids, and aren't planning on that for a couple of years.

We visisted Shadyside this weekend and fell in love. The problem is... I don't think we can afford Shadyside! At least not a duplex, and maybe not even a single family home. We'd settle for a townhouse, but our goal is to purchase a whole duplex so we can generate some rental income.

Do you think we can find a duplex (preferably) or a single-family home in Shadyside for less than $200k? Or would you recommend another area that is similar to Shadyside (with that fantastic strip on Walnut and the gorgeous houses)?

[Evergrey]

I'm not sure of the housing prices... but you might want to check out the Point Breeze neighborhood... which is similar to Point Breeze with the attractive tree-lined streets and gorgeous housing... though most of it is a couple decades newer than Shadyside's venerable stock... there is nothing in Point Breeze that comes close to Walnut St., but Reynolds St.'s business district packs a nice punch for being so tiny. Point Breeze is also quite close to Shadyside... and has quick access to Frick Park. I would assume housing prices are a tad more affordable here than Shadyside... Drover could probably answer your questions more accurately.

[stevo6]

On the other side of Frick Park (further east) is Regent Square. There are some lovely streets and it is much more affordable. Much more modest than Shadyside however. Squirrelhill has some very nice streets and bona-fide mansions as well, not to mention a pretty lively shopping district.

[subdivisions]

It's not quite as "trendy" as Shadyside, but a very nice neighborhood in its own right. I second the recommendation for Regent Square, but Point Breeze might be out of your price range also.

[ontheroad]

Thomas Blvd (Point Breeze area) has some lovely townhouses and I believe they were selling for less than $200,000. It's also so close to the Food Coop, the new Trader Joes and other conveniences--and a small park up the blvd.

Lovely area.

[Sideblinded]

We are moving soon also. (2/5!!) We have not sold our home in IL, so we are renting, and found a great place in Regent Square. (I think, I will not see it until we move in 2 weeks!) It does look like a nice area and my husband toured the place, and the price was 40% less than anything in Squirrel Hill and the kids go to Minadeo Elementary School.

I saw a few pictures and asked him to sign the lease!

When we buy we will have the option of staying in Regent Sq or parts of Squirrel Hill so our kid can attend the same school he has been.

If you do not have kids, or planning on sending them to private schools you have a lot more choices.

[Hopes]

Shadyside and Squirrel Hill are way over priced. Anything you can find in the affordable range will require lots of work. If you're planning to have children, chances are you'll want to move into the suburbs eventually, or you're going to have to pay for private schools. Plus Living within the city limits means higher local taxes. The local income tax in the suburbs is 1%, but the local income tax for city residents is 7%.

Are you determined to live within the city? You can buy a 2000sqft split level in the suburbs for 150k. There are beautiful victorians in the suburbs too. You could snag one for 250k or less in Glenshaw. Ask about Glenshaw Avenue and the immediate surrounding neighborhood. It's filled with original victorian houses. There's no business strip in the area though. It's the suburbs.

If you MUST live in the city:

Point Breeze can be a dangerous proposition if you end up buying a house too close to Homewood, one of Pittsburgh's ghettos. Also, Point Breeze doesn't have a shopping district like you're hoping to find. If you're set on looking for a house in Point Breeze, try to find something closer to Beechwood Blvd and farther away from Penn Avenue.

The Bloomfield/Friendship areas would be more affordable than Shadyside. Bloomfield has a much larger business strip on Liberty Avenue. It's Pittsburgh's "little Italy." The houses in Friendship, an area that runs along behind the bloomfield business district, has many beautiful victorians. Look for homes farther away from Penn Avenue because another Pittsburgh ghetto, Garfield, is on the other side of Penn Avenue.

Many people like Regent Square. It's definitely more affordable and has a business strip (not upscale). I don't know enough about Regent Square to know if it's adjacent to any dangerous neighborhoods.

The reality is that most Pittsburgh city neighborhoods are right next to ghettos. That's the main reason to move to the suburbs if you can't afford to pay for private schooling for you children.

[ontheroad]

Such a well written, informative post.

I do wonder however why you might think an urban environment isn't appropriate for child rearing. Is it really everyone's dream to live in a suburb?

I never have and I always felt my children did better learning to see the light and the dark, rather than the grey.

And Regent's Square, like the other neighbourhoods in PGH does border yet another neighbourhood one might describe as a ghetto or just urban diversity.

Originally Posted by Hopes

Shadyside and Squirrel Hill are way over priced. Anything you can find in the affordable range will require lots of work. If you're planning to have children, chances are you'll want to move into the suburbs eventually, or you're going to have to pay for private schools. Plus Living within the city limits means higher local taxes. The local income tax in the suburbs is 1%, but the local income tax for city residents is 7%.

Are you determined to live within the city? You can buy a 2000sqft split level in the suburbs for 150k. There are beautiful victorians in the suburbs too. You could snag one for 250k or less in Glenshaw. Ask about Glenshaw Avenue and the immediate surrounding neighborhood. It's filled with original victorian houses. There's no business strip in the area though. It's the suburbs.

If you MUST live in the city:

Point Breeze can be a dangerous proposition if you end up buying a house too close to Homewood, one of Pittsburgh's ghettos. Also, Point Breeze doesn't have a shopping district like you're hoping to find. If you're set on looking for a house in Point Breeze, try to find something closer to Beechwood Blvd and farther away from Penn Avenue.

The Bloomfield/Friendship areas would be more affordable than Shadyside. Bloomfield has a much larger business strip on Liberty Avenue. It's Pittsburgh's "little Italy." The houses in Friendship, an area that runs along behind the bloomfield business district, has many beautiful victorians. Look for homes farther away from Penn Avenue because another Pittsburgh ghetto, Garfield, is on the other side of Penn Avenue.

Many people like Regent Square. It's definitely more affordable and has a business strip (not upscale). I don't know enough about Regent Square to know if it's adjacent to any dangerous neighborhoods.

The reality is that most Pittsburgh city neighborhoods are right next to ghettos. That's the main reason to move to the suburbs if you can't afford to pay for private schooling for you children.

[subdivisions]

Originally Posted by Hopes

. The reality is that most Pittsburgh city neighborhoods are right next to ghettos. That's the main reason to move to the suburbs if you can't afford to pay for private schooling for you children.

Below is a repost from another thread re: safety of Pittsburgh city neighborhoods (particularly those in the east, where the OP would like to live). I thought it was worth posting again since this issue has resurfaced. Wilkinsburg is the name of the neighborhood that borders Regent Square. It has a bad reputation but Regent Square is listed as one of the safest neighborhoods in Pittsburgh. Similarly, Point Breeze is at the low end of the list despite bordering Homewood.

MY PERSONAL, ANECDOTAL OPINION: Having been in almost every neighborhood in Pittsburgh in recent months (either visiting or looking at houses) I can say that there are very few neighborhoods in the east I wouldn't live in because of crime or "diversity". I find the North Side to be a little scary, though. I know the Mexican War Streets is a very "hip" area, and it has amazing houses, but I don't think I would ever live there. The people walking around on the streets creep me out and it just has a bad vibe to me. This is an impression supported by data.

Take this all with a grain of salt, though - I am not someone who would enjoy living in the suburbs just to feel "safe". I prefer an urban environment and am willing to sacrifice some of the nicer elements of the suburbs (lower crime, less graffiti, etc.) to live in a place that is less bland and status-obsessed. I visited the suburb of Fox Chapel recently also, doing research at Shadyside Academy (an upscale private school), and was not favorably impressed. If I won the lottery tomorrow, Fox Chapel would be down at the bottom of my list of places to buy a million dollar house. Point Breeze would probably be at the top, despite its proximity to a "ghetto". Also, I know things about the lifestyles of students at Shadyside Academy that would curl your hair, and if you were a parent you wouldn't want to send your kid there, believe me. Let's just put it this way: Shadyside Academy kids can easily afford the things the Homewood kids are into, so the primary difference between them is that they don't have to commit crimes to get what they want.

Anyway, here's something I posted on another thread that might be helpful:

According to this website Moderator cut: linking to competitors sites is not allowed, the national average # of crimes per 100 persons (across US, rural and urban) is 4.63. Pittsburgh comes in at an average of 5.75 crimes per 100 persons.

On this website, from 2003, crime rates are listed by Pittsburgh neighborhood (Part Two: Pittsburgh neighborhood crime statistics) – you can scroll down to Table 3 and get a full overview of all crime, or go back a few pages and look at crime by type for each neighborhood.

Using Table 3 on this page, one can see how crime in each neighborhood compares to the Pittsburgh and national average. I count 57 neighborhoods listed here that have crime rates above the Pittsburgh average. We’ll just call them the “bad neighborhoods”, although it’s certainly an arguable point that there might not be too much difference between a crime rate of 5.7 and 5.9 in terms of real danger. Anyway, perusing this list further reveals that 15 of these neighborhoods are in the east. So, 15/57 = 26% of “bad” Pittsburgh neighborhoods in the East.

Alternatively, 32 Pittsburgh neighborhoods report crime rates below the Pittsburgh average. Perusing this list reveals that 13 of them are on the East Side. So, 13/32 = of “good” Pittsburgh neighborhoods in the East. Further, 11 of 13 have crime rates below the national average 0f 4.6 - again, that's including rural and suburban areas across the country, so suggests that they are probably pretty safe places to live considering that they are in a big city.

Another look suggests that many of the worst neighborhoods (crime rates above 15) are located on the North Shore (Chateau, Allegheny West, North Shore), while many of the best (crime rates below 3) are located in the east (Squirrel Hill, Regent Square, Point Breeze). In fact most east end neighborhoods compare quite favorably with those located in the South Hills, a more "suburban" environment.

Conclusion? Yes, there are some bad neighborhoods in east Pittsburgh. But that doesn’t mean that the entire east side is somehow riddled with evil people or that you will be mugged every time you walk out your door if you move to Squirrel Hill.

Personally, I've lived in the east side for over 3 years, and feel quite safe here. I walk alone on my street after dark, I never hear gunfire or see crack heads on the street, and I answer my door when somebody knocks on it. My neighbors are all totally nice, reasonable people, and we've never had any trouble with any of them.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

I thought it was worth posting again since this issue has resurfaced. Wilkinsburg is the name of the neighborhood that borders Regent Square. It has a bad reputation but Regent Square is listed as one of the safest neighborhoods in Pittsburgh. Similarly, Point Breeze is at the low end of the list despite bordering Homewood.

Thanks! I wasn't as familiar with Regent Square to give a solid thumbs up regarding safety. I do know the houses are more affordable in that area. Many of them are beautiful too!

Originally Posted by subdivisions

I find the North Side to be a little scary, though. I know the Mexican War Streets is a very "hip" area, and it has amazing houses, but I don't think I would ever live there. The people walking around on the streets creep me out and it just has a bad vibe to me. This is an impression supported by data.

I completely agree about the North Side being a much more dangerous area than the eastern city neighborhoods. I like it's diversity though. I think the reason North Side has this problem more than the eastern neighborhoods is because there are no 'buffer' neighborhoods in North Side. The dangerous neighborhoods in the north are all located together. You have to go down the Ohio River to find the milder city neighborhoods on the north side of the rivers.

Originally Posted by subdivisions

Point Breeze would probably be at the top, despite its proximity to a "ghetto".

If someone is going to buy a house in Point Breeze or one the other mentioned neighborhoods, I think it's best to tip them off to where the borders are drawn so a real estate agent doesn't scam them into buying property that isn't truly located in the neighborhood we pointed them towards.

Originally Posted by subdivisions

Also, I know things about the lifestyles of students at Shadyside Academy that would curl your hair, and if you were a parent you wouldn't want to send your kid there, believe me. Let's just put it this way: Shadyside Academy kids can easily afford the things the Homewood kids are into, so the primary difference between them is that they don't have to commit crimes to get what they want.

Absolutely true. That was my experience growing up too.

Originally Posted by subdivisions

Anyway, here's something I posted on another thread that might be helpful:

Conclusion? Yes, there are some bad neighborhoods in east Pittsburgh. But that doesn’t mean that the entire east side is somehow riddled with evil people or that you will be mugged every time you walk out your door if you move to Squirrel Hill.

Personally, I've lived in the east side for over 3 years, and feel quite safe here. I walk alone on my street after dark, I never hear gunfire or see crack heads on the street, and I answer my door when somebody knocks on it. My neighbors are all totally nice, reasonable people, and we've never had any trouble with any of them.

I had no idea there was fighting going on here about eastern city neighborhoods.

Throughout my MANY years in Pittsburgh, I've lived in Shadyside, Squirrel Hill, Point Breeze, Friendship, Manchester, Mexican War Streets, Spring Hill, Bethel Park, West Deer, Lower Burrel, Fox Chapel & Hampton. I grew up in Fox Chapel, I lived in all the city neighborhoods as a young adult. I've spent almost my entire life in Pittsburgh so I'm going to call it like I see it when I respond to someone's question about an area.

My negative experiences were my windows shot out in Manchester, being robbed in Point Breeze, my car stolen in Friendship, and my house toilet papered in West Deer in devil's night.

When my car was stolen in Friendship, it was found across Penn Avenue in Garfield, parked along side some old man's house and completely stripped. He only dared to call the police to report it when the kids were about to set it on fire which would have set his own house on fire. So I know first hand how people from the 'ghetto' neighborhoods do cross the neighborhood lines to commit crimes.

I LOVE the city neighborhoods. All of them have great advantages. However, based on my experience, I personally believe the suburbs is a better place to raise children. That's my personal preference and I'm entitled to it. Someone looking for advice on areas will also have the same opinions as me. They'll be glad I shared my view. And someone sharing your views will be glad to read your opinions when they come here for advice.

I see no reason for people to be offended. I'm not the least bit offended to hear someone say negative things about my township. The goal here is to provide people with enough information for them to make their own choices. If we all just said great things about a neighborhood or township, they would have been better off not even asking us our opinions. People are looking for the good and the bad. They don't just want to hear the wonderful things.