Shootings (York, Mount Oliver, Homestead: apartment, schools, subdivision)

[ExPit]

Originally Posted by mr.davon24

Although I could agree with your statement, how could you even mention guns without mentioning the drug problems? I think if the cops crack down on that there would be less crime.

The drug situation is too much for them. The War on Drugs is a farce. Cops can behave inappropriately I agree, but as always we are forced to deal on the local level with the corruption and lies that come from the top.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

I was just about to point this out. In my opinion, women were oppressed more and for longer than black people in this country (and in fact, throughout the course of human history in general). As a woman, I see sexism every day of my life. We've come a long way (baby), but there's still a lot to be fixed.

But fixing it, for me, is not ever going to involve making reparations for something that was done before I was ever a twinkle in my mother's eye. I wasn't the victim that these things were done to, and the people around me now aren't the victimizers who perpetrated those things. Acknowledging that these things were a part of our history - yes. But as much as we wish to hold someone accountable, it's still water under the bridge. I want to focus on the ongoing BS in the here-and-now, and pointing fingers at dead people won't accomplish anything towards that goal.

Just my opinion.

True what you say about women, but it still remains that white women have more power and opportunity than blacks of any sex; also remember that a white woman can, still, in 2008, accuse a black man of anything and his life is down the tubes. That said, I am not advocating pointing fingers at the dead; just that when people blame black folks for poverty, crime, etc., one of the reasons there is poverty and crime committed now is that the ancestors of some of those who do these things had no opportunity to get out of the mess they were in. Problems are passed on from generation to generation.

[ExPit]

Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad

True what you say about women, but it still remains that white women have more power and opportunity than blacks of any sex; also remember that a white woman can, still, in 2008, accuse a black man of anything and his life is down the tubes. That said, I am not advocating pointing fingers at the dead; just that when people blame black folks for poverty, crime, etc., one of the reasons there is poverty and crime committed now is that the ancestors of some of those who do these things had no opportunity to get out of the mess they were in. Problems are passed on from generation to generation.

Regardless what color or race or sex you are, you'll have a tougher go of it if your father is either in prison or nowhere to be found or barely got out of the tenth grade or is on drugs or booze or the gambling fix; but then, wait his father didn't leave him much to work with either, and neither did his; I see a pattern here.

Mostly, the only people that think the social/economic/educational class we're born into is irrelevant, that people should just be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps..What the hell's wrong with these people? "I did it," for the most part are people who were born with a helluva lot more to work with; to give others understanding is to somehow lessen the challenges that we have personally met and overcome ... Right?

[mm6687]

Originally Posted by kenyaa

I'm sure you're trying to convey some sort of coherent thought or opinion, but I don't know what it is.

Obviously I did not want you to know what my thoughts were or I would have elaborated on it. I just said you guys are racist and you are...the truth hurts...No matter how you put it, through all these threads, racism!!!! Get over it. We we brought over here by you, now deal with it. We are here to stay just as you are and should be treated equal. Your thought and opinions do not matter to me, I live for myself and not what others think. I see there are a lot of others out here with us.

Without reading ANY other post in this thread I just want to comment;

Do you realize how many times that has been thrown in my face? I am white therefor I brought you over. That is the most racist thing in the world HYPOCRITE. Do not ever call anyone racist again, because you obviously do not know the meaning of the word, like most people, black, white, yellow, red, who use it.

My Irish family came over after the 1840 famine and were treated as "White ******s", given jobs that no one else wanted, killed, beaten up, and discriminated against.

My Italian side came over to the States in 1914, and were immediately treated to the niceness of their new county by having their front porch blown off by their protestant working comrades.

My history has experienced discrimination also, but I never make a fact about it, because even though it still exists to this present day, myself and my family have overcome it.


I suggest you do the same.

African Americans are not the only ones who were treated like **** in this country, and will not be the last, call it the curse of human beings for "different" people to by treated badly and persecuted.

Opinion's change, and are changing, I am 100% certain the black society in the United States NEEDS to change, denying that will only cause more problems.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by mm6687

Without reading ANY other post in this thread I just want to comment;

Do you realize how many times that has been thrown in my face? I am white therefor I brought you over. That is the most racist thing in the world HYPOCRITE. Do not ever call anyone racist again, because you obviously do not know the meaning of the word, like most people, black, white, yellow, red, who use it.

My Irish family came over after the 1840 famine and were treated as "White ******s", given jobs that no one else wanted, killed, beaten up, and discriminated against.

My Italian side came over to the States in 1914, and were immediately treated to the niceness of their new county by having their front porch blown off by their protestant working comrades.

My history has experienced discrimination also, but I never make a fact about it, because even though it still exists to this present day, myself and my family have overcome it.


I suggest you do the same.

African Americans are not the only ones who were treated like **** in this country, and will not be the last, call it the curse of human beings for "different" people to by treated badly and persecuted.

Opinion's change, and are changing, I am 100% certain the black society in the United States NEEDS to change, denying that will only cause more problems.

You and your family were white; you could be assimilated into the white mainstream and overcome any impediments your ancestors came into; despite the things your family went through, you were, at baseline, considered human and now you are considered an individual. Not so for me. I come from immigrants and African Americans who came here involuntarily, and I am still trying to prove that I am a human being that is no different from anyone else. No matter how indignant you may get, you have to realize that this is still a problem in America. If you really think that this is something black folks can simply "overcome," you are deluded. You know where your ancestors come from, you know what their names are, and you know that your rights and very humanity are respected.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by ExPit

Regardless what color or race or sex you are, you'll have a tougher go of it if your father is either in prison or nowhere to be found or barely got out of the tenth grade or is on drugs or booze or the gambling fix; but then, wait his father didn't leave him much to work with either, and neither did his; I see a pattern here.

Mostly, the only people that think the social/economic/educational class we're born into is irrelevant, that people should just be able to pull themselves up by their bootstraps..What the hell's wrong with these people? "I did it," for the most part are people who were born with a helluva lot more to work with; to give others understanding is to somehow lessen the challenges that we have personally met and overcome ... Right?

I know there are many who would like to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. Problem is, they don't have any boots.

[subdivisions]

This is such a hard topic for me - I can see both sides and I feel conflicted about it.

As a social scientist, I am well aware of the ways in which poverty and racism perpetuate themselves, and of the myriad of subtle ways in which majority society makes it difficult for minority society to "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps". On a wider level, it's just not as easy as the conservative talk show hosts and those who have had nothing but priviledge would like us all to believe. It just isn't. People suck, and the world sucks. Racism and classism are alive and well in America today and anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial.

On the other hand, I live in the inner city, in a transitional neighborhood which is majority African-American in ethnicity, and parts of which are lower income (all races). Every day I watch the ways in which some of my neighbors conduct their lives, and I just want to shake them and tell them to wake the **** up about what they're doing to themselves. I'm not talking about drugs or prostitution or anything that blatant. I'm talking about smaller stuff that nevertheless can have a big impact on someone's life - dress, demeanor, life choices. Like: what the hell ever happened to using birth control? Having 3 kids before the age of 20 with a HS diploma isn't going to lead to a good life for anyone, regardless of what race you are. And it's hard to blame racism and "the man" for not hiring you when you refuse to look people in the eye, you look sullen and angry, and you can't speak standard English. These are the kinds of behaviors the Rush Limbaughs of the world see in the black community, and it's what they (the *******s) use to absolve themselves of all responsibility for the evil the rest of society perpetuates in ethnic minority communities. And frankly, they're not completely wrong, in my opinion (although they always fail to acknowlege that there are PLENTY of white people who act like this too).

Everybody needs to address this issue from whatever side of the issue they find themselves on before race and class will stop being a problem in this country. White/priviledged/majority people need to acknowledge their own knee-jerk negative responses to anybody who's different and work on those behaviors, and black/lower class/minority people need to take responsibility for the things they CAN change about the position they find themselves in before blaming all of their problems on the *******s in the world.

Now, a couple of personal stories: my mother was the 12th child in an alcoholic immigrant family in an inner city neighborhood. Her parents were lower class, didn't speak good English, and spent most of the family's money on booze. Also, there was a lot of physical and emotional abuse between the parents and the children. Her father didn't believe that women should be educated. In his eyes, women were only good for popping out babies and cooking and cleaning. So he wouldn't let her take academic classes in high school, forcing her to take typing and home ec and so forth. And it was the early 60s, a time when attitudes like his were not uncommon, and women got married right out of high school or were only supposed to be secretaries.

Despite this, my mother had ambition. She graduated valedictorian of her high school. She refused to get married like all her friends because she wanted to see the world, and in her mid-twenties, she joined the Peace Corps. They sent her to Vietnam, by herself, in the middle of the war. And she went, even though she was scared. She didn't marry until she was 30 (totally on the shelf in those days), and then proceeded to put herself through a BA and an MA while taking care of a young child (me). She worked hard her whole life after getting her degrees and invested their income responsibly, and my parents are now retired with many millions in the bank. If you met her and spoke to her, you would NEVER in a million years guess that she came from the background that she did.

My point? If my mother could do it, so can other people. It's an unusual story, but it's not the only one out there like it. People do stuff like that every day. And crappy home lives aren't limited to black people.

I also wanted to address the "you people did this to my people" thing. My ancestors came over from England in the 1600's, at least the side I can trace (my dad's side), and immediately converted to Quakerism and became fiercely anti-slavery. Literally every single generation of my family were abolitionists since the first generation set foot on American soil. Members of my family were beaten and arrested for protesting slavery. My great-grandfather 4 times removed and his wife hosted a stop on the Underground Railroad in Ohio. So in my case, "my people" really didn't do that to "your people". "My people" risked everything, including their very lives, to stop this country from enslaving and oppressing "your people". So don't assume my skin color = worthless asshat, and I won't do the same to you, ok?

[ExPit]

Originally Posted by Sunil's Dad

I know there are many who would like to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. Problem is, they don't have any boots.

I hope you know I agree with you.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by ExPit

I hope you know I agree with you.

Cool cool cool.

[Lucario]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

This is such a hard topic for me - I can see both sides and I feel conflicted about it.

As a social scientist, I am well aware of the ways in which poverty and racism perpetuate themselves, and of the myriad of subtle ways in which majority society makes it difficult for minority society to "pull themselves up by their own bootstraps". On a wider level, it's just not as easy as the conservative talk show hosts and those who have had nothing but priviledge would like us all to believe. It just isn't. People suck, and the world sucks. Racism and classism are alive and well in America today and anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial.

On the other hand, I live in the inner city, in a transitional neighborhood which is majority African-American in ethnicity, and parts of which are lower income (all races). Every day I watch the ways in which some of my neighbors conduct their lives, and I just want to shake them and tell them to wake the **** up about what they're doing to themselves. I'm not talking about drugs or prostitution or anything that blatant. I'm talking about smaller stuff that nevertheless can have a big impact on someone's life - dress, demeanor, life choices. Like: what the hell ever happened to using birth control? Having 3 kids before the age of 20 with a HS diploma isn't going to lead to a good life for anyone, regardless of what race you are. And it's hard to blame racism and "the man" for not hiring you when you refuse to look people in the eye, you look sullen and angry, and you can't speak standard English. These are the kinds of behaviors the Rush Limbaughs of the world see in the black community, and it's what they (the *******s) use to absolve themselves of all responsibility for the evil the rest of society perpetuates in ethnic minority communities. And frankly, they're not completely wrong, in my opinion (although they always fail to acknowlege that there are PLENTY of white people who act like this too).

Everybody needs to address this issue from whatever side of the issue they find themselves on before race and class will stop being a problem in this country. White/priviledged/majority people need to acknowledge their own knee-jerk negative responses to anybody who's different and work on those behaviors, and black/lower class/minority people need to take responsibility for the things they CAN change about the position they find themselves in before blaming all of their problems on the *******s in the world.

Now, a couple of personal stories: my mother was the 12th child in an alcoholic immigrant family in an inner city neighborhood. Her parents were lower class, didn't speak good English, and spent most of the family's money on booze. Also, there was a lot of physical and emotional abuse between the parents and the children. Her father didn't believe that women should be educated. In his eyes, women were only good for popping out babies and cooking and cleaning. So he wouldn't let her take academic classes in high school, forcing her to take typing and home ec and so forth. And it was the early 60s, a time when attitudes like his were not uncommon, and women got married right out of high school or were only supposed to be secretaries.

Despite this, my mother had ambition. She graduated valedictorian of her high school. She refused to get married like all her friends because she wanted to see the world, and in her mid-twenties, she joined the Peace Corps. They sent her to Vietnam, by herself, in the middle of the war. And she went, even though she was scared. She didn't marry until she was 30 (totally on the shelf in those days), and then proceeded to put herself through a BA and an MA while taking care of a young child (me). She worked hard her whole life after getting her degrees and invested their income responsibly, and my parents are now retired with many millions in the bank. If you met her and spoke to her, you would NEVER in a million years guess that she came from the background that she did.

My point? If my mother could do it, so can other people. It's an unusual story, but it's not the only one out there like it. People do stuff like that every day. And crappy home lives aren't limited to black people.

I also wanted to address the "you people did this to my people" thing. My ancestors came over from England in the 1600's, at least the side I can trace (my dad's side), and immediately converted to Quakerism and became fiercely anti-slavery. Literally every single generation of my family were abolitionists since the first generation set foot on American soil. Members of my family were beaten and arrested for protesting slavery. My great-grandfather 4 times removed and his wife hosted a stop on the Underground Railroad in Ohio. So in my case, "my people" really didn't do that to "your people". "My people" risked everything, including their very lives, to stop this country from enslaving and oppressing "your people". So don't assume my skin color = worthless asshat, and I won't do the same to you, ok?

You make sense here. I can't respond to all of your points (though I'd like to), but I can be as hard on black folks as I am on anyone else...and I haven't been one of those who says "whitey bad, brothas good". It's a lot more complex than that.