Shootings (Pittsburgh: how much, restaurant, shopping mall)

[ExPit]

Just read in today's Post Gazette of another shooting in Pittsburgh. Well, Mckees Rocks, but close enough, inside a restaurant at 1am this morning.

No one died in this one, but four people were injured and no suspects were arrested.

So easy to fire a gun. The results are impersonal, you don't even have to touch anyone. Your actions are disconnected from the results.

I can stand on the far side of a shopping mall parking lot, set an arbitrary target in my sites, squeeze a state of the art, form fitting trigger and one second later...

My point is it's too easy. It doesn't take any effort. There is no risk to my own physical well-being. It doesn't even take the guts it would to come up from behind someone with a knife and...

There you'd have to get up close, albeit from behind, make actual physical contact, feel the shudder, hear the groan, the scream...

Ok, I don't want to be sensational, but I'm just trying to make a point, and I can't pretend to have the answer, but does no one on this board agree that America has a gun problem? I used to have the statistics, but unless I remember it totally different from what it is, there is no country anywhere that compares to the U.S. in per capita gun violence.

Nobody wants to talk about guns? On a thread that's devoted to shootings?

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by ExPit

Just read in today's Post Gazette of another shooting in Pittsburgh. Well, Mckees Rocks, but close enough, inside a restaurant at 1am this morning.

No one died in this one, but four people were injured and no suspects were arrested.

So easy to fire a gun. The results are impersonal, you don't even have to touch anyone. Your actions are disconnected from the results.

I can stand on the far side of a shopping mall parking lot, set an arbitrary target in my sites, squeeze a state of the art, form fitting trigger and one second later...

My point is it's too easy. It doesn't take any effort. There is no risk to my own physical well-being. It doesn't even take the guts it would to come up from behind someone with a knife and...

There you'd have to get up close, albeit from behind, make actual physical contact, feel the shudder, hear the groan, the scream...

Ok, I don't want to be sensational, but I'm just trying to make a point, and I can't pretend to have the answer, but does no one on this board agree that America has a gun problem? I used to have the statistics, but unless I remember it totally different from what it is, there is no country anywhere that compares to the U.S. in per capita gun violence.

Nobody wants to talk about guns? On a thread that's devoted to shootings?

I'll talk about guns! I've never owned one and probably never will, but I believe the individual right to own them is enshrined in the Bill of Rights and I don't trust anyone who believes in taking them away from law-abiding people. Start in on the Second Amendment and watch the others fall, one by one. That's what I have to say about guns.

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by aveojohn

One thing black people need to realize,is that most white people (98%?)did not own slaves.This was reserved for the wealthy plantation owners.How do ya think they got so rich?

Thank you! I posted that earlier as 90% but I think you are probably closer to the truth. This really needs to be drilled into people's heads, along with the fact that so many poor white people (the majority) came here in chains too. Maybe indentured servitude wasn't for life, but (and again I'm treading into dangerous territory) I've read accounts where they were treated WORSE than slaves, for the simple reason that they were basically like rental cars. Their owners (renters?) knew they only had them for 7 years or so, and thus tried to get as much "mileage" out of them as possible, where actual slaves were treated as an investment. A lot of servants didn't survive their periods of indenture whereas there were plenty of living slaves to be freed by the Emancipation Proclamation (ironically by a president who didn't give a crap about them, but that's another story). I'm not saying slaves were treated well, but they were usually treated better than indentured servants, aka my ancestors. Trust me. I'm Scots-Irish, the original "white trash". I know what I'm talking about. Stop talking about reparations and focus on the present. Maybe then, something will be accomplished.

[ExPit]

Originally Posted by creepsinc

I'll talk about guns! I've never owned one and probably never will, but I believe the individual right to own them is enshrined in the Bill of Rights and I don't trust anyone who believes in taking them away from law-abiding people. Start in on the Second Amendment and watch the others fall, one by one. That's what I have to say about guns.

I'll tell ya. This thing of if it's in the Constitution then the discussion ends is a dead-end. Don't take this as an insult, but I'll bet you like Ron Paul, a native Pittsburgher by the way. I liked him too, and someone very close to me was involved in his campaign.

If the Constitution and all its Amendments are so hands-off sacred, then where do we go?

First, I think we'd have to agree that there is a gun problem in America.

[Pitts10yrs]

Whites are not racist, and for the most part they are afraid to confront or say anything to blacks. Blacks tend to be very racist, and the their culture teaches them to be likewise. Spend some time at Schenley High School and see how other cultures are victimized by the black students and how this is just ignored. There are real african-american students there, along with students from south america that cant attend without being targetted. I talked to them, and even interviewed them in person. But, little is said, because no one will report on, just afraid to, and could not fathom a black person being raciest.

I dont believe this is absolutely pervasive throughout the black community, because I know different, but this type of attitude needs be brought out into the light. Again, I say its Parenting. As far as guns, this is also a parenting issue. Would it make you feel any better if all the murders were by knife, or the victims clubbed to death?

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by ExPit

I'll tell ya. This thing of if it's in the Constitution then the discussion ends is a dead-end. Don't take this as an insult, but I'll bet you like Ron Paul, a native Pittsburgher by the way. I liked him too, and someone very close to me was involved in his campaign.

If the Constitution and all its Amendments are so hands-off sacred, then where do we go?

First, I think we'd have to agree that there is a gun problem in
America.

No, I don't like Ron Paul, for various reasons. I don't like John McCain, Bob Barr, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, George W. Bush, or Ralph Nader either. Regardless, I consider the Bill of Rights to be "hands-off sacred". I'm not against amending the Constitution, obviously, but it's hard to do for a reason. The first ten amendments are what have kept this country (barely) from sliding into fascism by now.

There appears to be an illegal gun problem in America.

Edit: I always find it chilling when I see or hear people downplaying the importance of the Constitution. If it were actually followed to the letter, we'd live in the greatest society on Earth.

[ExPit]

Originally Posted by creepsinc

No, I don't like Ron Paul, for various reasons. I don't like John McCain, Bob Barr, Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, George W. Bush, or Ralph Nader either. Regardless, I consider the Bill of Rights to be "hands-off sacred". I'm not against amending the Constitution, obviously, but it's hard to do for a reason. The first ten amendments are what have kept this country (barely) from sliding into fascism by now.

There appears to be an illegal gun problem in America.

Edit: I always find it chilling when I see or hear people downplaying the importance of the Constitution. If it were actually followed to the letter, we'd live in the greatest society on Earth.

"Appears to be?"

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by ExPit

"Appears to be?"

''

Let's not get bogged down in semantics. I'm all for STRICT gun laws, like the one in my hometown of Richmond, VA. You get caught with an illegal handgun, you go to prison for 5 years. No more, no less. It worked wonders on the murder rate.

[ExPit]

Originally Posted by creepsinc

''

Let's not get bogged down in semantics. I'm all for STRICT gun laws, like the one in my hometown of Richmond, VA. You get caught with an illegal handgun, you go to prison for 5 years. No more, no less. It worked wonders on the murder rate.

I like that law. But let's not forget that some of the most infamous shooting sprees in recent history were committed with legally owned guns, Virginia Tech and Columbine. Would you agree that simply the proliferation of guns in America, whether legally owned or not, is at least partially responsible for a gun violence rate that no country in the world even comes close to; I would welcome anybody to challenge me on that assertion, and though as I said earlier I don't have the statistics, but would actually be glad to hear that I'm wrong.

It's just the odds, if nothing else. And I'm far from an expert on how the gun industry works, but most of these illegal guns if not all, I would bet, were originally legally owned.

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by ExPit

I like that law. But let's not forget that some of the most infamous shooting sprees in recent history were committed with legally owned guns, Virginia Tech and Columbine. Would you agree that simply the proliferation of guns in America, whether legally owned or not, is at least partially responsible for a gun violence rate that no country in the world even comes close to; I would welcome anybody to challenge me on that assertion, and though as I said earlier I don't have the statistics, but would actually be glad to hear that I'm wrong.

It's just the odds, if nothing else. And I'm far from an expert on how the gun industry works, but most of these illegal guns if not all, I would bet, were originally legally owned.

Switzerland's gun ownership rate approaches 100%. I don't have their murder statistics close at hand, but I don't hear much about it. The Nazis were afraid to invade Switzerland.

Universities are usually "gun-free" zones. There was one school shooting, in either Western VA or West Va, which took place at a school which wasn't a gun-free zone. I think the shooter hit 2 people before getting blown away by a student with a permit to carry.

Like I said before, I don't own a gun and most of my beliefs would fall into the "liberal" category, but it's the whole anti-2nd Amendment stance (among other nanny-state b.s.) which keeps me from being "a" liberal.