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2 shot early Tuesday in Hill District | TribLIVE Mobile
Let's not drink too much of the kook-aid here. I'm not saying most of the Hill District should be refered to as a hostile war zone, but it truely is a rough neighborhood. Second to none (note even Homewood with 92 murders) the Hill (excluding SugarTop) is the the murder capitol of Pittsburgh with 97 murders from 1997-2012. Though its safe to say that most motives were somehow inner-personal disputes or were drug-related (but rarely gang/group-related between rival factions in the Chauncey Drive Housing Projects & Homewood).
Q: Does that mean you will most definitley be robbed if you walk there during the day???
A: No... In fact, you most likely won't have a problem at all...
There have never been any safety issues during any of my many experiences in the Hill District and have plenty of good memories. Still numbers don't lie, and there's a criminal element that can prove it. The Hill's criminal element isn't a predatory one, and you will likely not have a problem unless you go find one. Yet its one where many of people have killed in.
That is the sole reason why I don't recommend Bedford Dwellings, Middle Hill, and part of Lower Hill, and tell OP's to avoid walking through the areas listed above at night (yet if so don't walk alone/take serious precautions)... It's not a displaced sense of fear, but in a sense a wise & distanced respect for the high number of recent homicides and notable element of drug/gang activity.
If numbers did not lie there wouldn't be that saying about "lies, damn lies, and statistics." Numbers never tell the whole story. Reducing whole neighborhoods or districts or cities to their crime stats dehumanizes communities and generates gratuitous fear. That is precisely how one ends up having to disabuse otherwise rational human beings of the preposterous notion that the Hill District is "a hostile war zone" or that every black person they pass on the street is a criminal.
If numbers did not lie there wouldn't be that saying about "lies, damn lies, and statistics." Numbers never tell the whole story. Reducing whole neighborhoods or districts or cities to their crime stats dehumanizes communities and generates gratuitous fear. That is precisely how one ends up having to disabuse otherwise rational human beings of the preposterous notion that the Hill District is "a hostile war zone" or that every black person they pass on the street is a criminal.
This is something that fueled by the developers to discourage others from buying property up there. If you notice that they are still building houses and apts while scaring the the hell out of the ignorant.
If numbers did not lie there wouldn't be that saying about "lies, damn lies, and statistics." Numbers never tell the whole story
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True I agree with you there...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devout Urbanist
Reducing whole neighborhoods or districts or cities to their crime stats dehumanizes communities and generates gratuitous fear. That is precisely how one ends up having to disabuse otherwise rational human beings of the preposterous notion that the Hill District is "a hostile war zone" or that every black person they pass on the street is a criminal.
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Disagree with you there... I will always differ someone with concerns of saftey from a neighborhood with a notable criminal element/a declining or rock bottom status like (and including) most of the Hill District south of Herron Ave. I'll always do this simply because violence is a almost regular occurrence in these places, and most people (especially families) don't want to live in that type of environment if they can prevent it. Also to be honest the average person over a certain age should be able to perceive danger and the reality of a rough neighborhood depending on the city's & their own personal standards... Those "preposterous notions," are from deeply rooted racist thinking, and/or totally ignorant & out of touch "white privilege" ignorance/other forms of ignorance due to separation social-economics. IMO when a person uses stats or common knowledge he/she is just stating the hard, cold truth. While that reality doesn't hurt society, or (specifically) the already hurting low income-working class black community...
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Disagree with you there... I will always differ someone with concerns of saftey from a neighborhood with a notable criminal element/a declining or rock bottom status like (and including) most of the Hill District south of Herron Ave. I'll always do this simply because violence is a almost regular occurrence in these places, and most people (especially families) don't want to live in that type of environment if they can prevent it. Also to be honest the average person over a certain age should be able to perceive danger and the reality of a rough neighborhood depending on the city's & their own personal standards... Those "preposterous notions," are from deeply rooted racist thinking, and/or totally ignorant & out of touch "white privilege" ignorance/other forms of ignorance due to separation social-economics. IMO when a person uses stats or common knowledge he/she is just stating the hard, cold truth. While that reality doesn't hurt society, or (specifically) the already hurting low income-working class black community...
The "hard, cold truth" about the Hill District is rooted in its crime rate? Not in the thousands of decent, hard-working, churchgoing folk who live there? Not in the young college students I personally know who live there? Not in the young professionals with families who have moved into the area? Not in the development efforts by various civic groups in the area? Not in the artists who call it home? Not in its surviving public institutions?
Unfortunately, violence occurs everywhere in the city, including parts that most people would call safe. Focusing exclusively on the crime in the Hill District and other predominantly black areas simply perpetuates those preposterous notions about the relationship between blackness and criminality that I previously mentioned. There is much more to the Hill than its crime, which gets discussed ad nauseam in the media. People might have a more balanced perception of the area and, who knows, maybe even a desire to help and support it if it were not constantly portrayed as a war zone.
I used to go to the YMCA on Francis pretty regularly for work and never had a problem. For years I've been going all through Homewood, Garfield, Lincoln-Lemington, Larimer, and never once had a problem anywhere. I've had more trouble with road raging drivers and loud neighbors in Brookline. My reckoning is that people everywhere know who is a "safe" target and what they can safely get away with.
Regardless of the chances of any particular person being a crime victim, some places have more absolute crime than others and not sure why anyone would think that is controversial. If anything, certain areas may have, for various reasons (say, an unwillingness to stir things up with the neighbors or something), more unreported crime, so the actual crime rates may be higher than what is reported by Public Safety. But, I would be reluctant to draw many specific conclusions regarding the likelihood of generic person X being a crime victim based on general crime statistics for a given area.
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Disagree with you there... I will always differ someone with concerns of saftey from a neighborhood with a notable criminal element/a declining or rock bottom status like (and including) most of the Hill District south of Herron Ave. I'll always do this simply because violence is a almost regular occurrence in these places, and most people (especially families) don't want to live in that type of environment if they can prevent it. Also to be honest the average person over a certain age should be able to perceive danger and the reality of a rough neighborhood depending on the city's & their own personal standards... Those "preposterous notions," are from deeply rooted racist thinking, and/or totally ignorant & out of touch "white privilege" ignorance/other forms of ignorance due to separation social-economics. IMO when a person uses stats or common knowledge he/she is just stating the hard, cold truth. While that reality doesn't hurt society, or (specifically) the already hurting low income-working class black community...
Except you're wrong on the first part. The crime is not at all as prevalent as you claim it to be, and it is far from random where it would effect the average household. The home invasions that are occuring out in the burbs should be far more concerning for the average person than are murders that involve gang affiliation or dealing drugs.
The image of the neighborhood that you portray, whether intentional or not, is not even remotely accurate. It is not as if the crime in the neighborhood is some well kept secret so what does exaggerating its impact or incidence accomplish? Stats without context are anything but truthful. The harm it can do is very real as any investment in the neighborhood, either on the corporate or individual level, which will effectively correct many of the problems long term will be dissuaded from occuring.
I've observed your posting on here for a few years now, and while often informative and helpful, there is a measure of personal gratification that you seem to take in labeling certain neighborhoods (suggesting that black families won't relocate to Troy Hill for instance) that I simply don't understand.
The "hard, cold truth" about the Hill District is rooted in its crime rate? Not in the thousands of decent, hard-working, churchgoing folk who live there? Not in the young college students I personally know who live there? Not in the young professionals with families who have moved into the area? Not in the development efforts by various civic groups in the area? Not in the artists who call it home? Not in its surviving public institutions?
Unfortunately, violence occurs everywhere in the city, including parts that most people would call safe. Focusing exclusively on the crime in the Hill District and other predominantly black areas simply perpetuates those preposterous notions about the relationship between blackness and criminality that I previously mentioned. There is much more to the Hill than its crime, which gets discussed ad nauseam in the media. People might have a more balanced perception of the area and, who knows, maybe even a desire to help and support it if it were not constantly portrayed as a war zone.
A cold hard factual truth about what I (as many other people) label the roughest ghettos of Pittsburgh/Allegheny: Homewood, parts of the Hill District (most of Middle Hill/Bedford Dwellings & Bentley Drive, Terrace Village), most of Central Wilkinsburg and Northview Heights Estates is that senseless killings and/or shootings occur there more than anywhere else! Homicide numbers are disproportionate in these types of neighborhoods than most neighborhoods, as most neighborhoods are without a high level of gang activity. You can expect there to be at least 3 (likely drug related) homicides in the Hill District every year. In neighborhoods like Squrriel Hill, Shadyside, Highland Park, Point Breeze or even areas such as Esplen, the Spring Garden Valley, Verona, Sharpsburg you can expect there to be zero homicides every year. That's why I am saddened, but not suprised when I hear "shooting in the Hill District"; where as rare fatal shooting in Squirrel Hill is news to me.
On another note, another cold hard truth about the Hill south of Herron is despite that there have been nearly 100 homicides since 1997, the community is still a great stronghold. I agree that it's only a small percentage of the population (which is still a large number) that's out there selling drugs and shooting without disregard. Most of the time law abiding citizens don't get shot, still you cant ignore nearly 100 people getting killed over 15years in the Hill- south of Herron Ave. What does that say anout the Hill? Sorry to offend you but that says: there is a high level of criminal activity; therefore, its unsafe environment! I too am desensitized to the murder and shootings of young men who are involved in gangs (unless it personally effects me as that Is only natural), however the difference here is that I don't ignore/unacknowledge the problems in society that this causes and severity of annual MURDERS consistently occurring in the Hill-south of Herron-excluding Crawford Sq, Oakhill etc. This type of environment is not suitable for most people. True there are thousands of decent, hard-working, churchgoing folk/artist; ambitious young college students; a few young professionals with families who have moved into the area; recent development efforts; various, vigilant/hardworking civic groups; and surviving public institutions and I agree with you. Nobody's deeming it a "war zone"... As the odds even if your white, walking in the Hill during the daytime, just like almost everywhere else you wont find a problem. Shoot you can live there your whole live and never get robbed, have your house broken into, yet you will hear gun shots, be around fiends, and probably witness illigal activity on close to a daily basis if you don't give a blind I to it. Personally I have only good memories of the Hill: attending community events at the Hill House, playing at Ammons Palyground as a kid (despite being from Wilkinsburg), waking to/from Downtown to/from Crawford Square with close family friends, occasionally going to some of the churches with my grandma/great aunts & uncles, messing with the Korean store owners at that weave/wig store, talking with some old timers outside the family dollar, etc... Yet that bias does not change the FACT that the Hill District- south of Herron Ave (excluding the middle class intergraded Crawford Square Apts & surround part of Lower Hill) is the murder Capitol of Pittsburgh... If you argue that this isn't relevant or significant to the community you most be out of your mind! I note the black middle class areas and bring up/focus on saftey issues
all neighborhoods that have them including Arlington, Carrick, etc (so not just the predominantly black ones). I'm typically do not perpetuate those preposterous notions (though now I realize that unintentionally, regularly stated false truths/over exaggerated when I first joined the forum), I'm just posting facts/hard truths.
You're missing the point. Everyone already knows the Hill has homicides. That is not news. How do you know what areas are "suitable for most people"? Do you know most people? These things are subjective. You claim that "nobody is deeming it a war zone" but that is easily the impression you get reading through this thread.
I do not ignore crime. I grew up partly in Detroit, so I don't need a lecture from you about street crime, homicides, or public safety. Dense, urban centers have street crime. Not a huge insight. The difference is that I know that there is more to Detroit and places like it than their crime rates. People derive pleasure from beating up on economically depressed black areas. It's a favorite pastime of bigots. Using the aberrant behavior of a few people to denigrate whole communities and groups of people is at best irresponsible and at worst just plain racist.
I do not ignore crime. I grew up partly in Detroit, so I don't need a lecture from you about street crime, homicides, or public safety. Dense, urban centers have street crime. Not a huge insight. The difference is that I know that there is more to Detroit and places like it than their crime rates. People derive pleasure from beating up on economically depressed black areas. It's a favorite pastime of bigots. Using the aberrant behavior of a few people to denigrate whole communities and groups of people is at best irresponsible and at worst just plain racist.
The population of the hill is about 12,000, and there have been 100 homicides there over the past 15 years. That's a pretty high murder rate, anyway you slice it.
Of course, most of the hill people are law-abiding and really aren't in imminent danger of being shot as most shootings are gang related.
But the presence and activity of gangs is something a lot of people just don't want to deal with- even if they aren't involved themselves.
But the presence and activity of gangs is something a lot of people just don't want to deal with- even if they aren't involved themselves.
Then maybe those people should leave Pittsburgh because that isn't simply a problem people in the Hill District have to deal with. It's a problem everyone in Pittsburgh has to deal with in one way or another, not simply because crime happens everywhere, but because a city like this one sinks or swims on the strengths of all its communities not just some of them.
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