In five words or less, how would you rate Pittsburgh's job market? (Philadelphia: private schools, colleges)

[likepgh]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

In what sense? Pit is just your average university. CMU is good, but its extremely expensive. The other schools in the area are rather expensive too. Secondary public education in PA in general isn't good, its too expensive and the schools aren't that great.

And just to note, the local universities don't directly create that many good jobs. Outside of academic employment (which doesn't work like a normal job market...) the majority of the jobs created by the universities are low/med wage jobs. Its nothing like having say a company like Google, Amgen etc in the area.

That's right, academic employment works differently than the "normal" job market. But the jobs are still jobs (they pay wages, people use those wages to purchase other services, and thus those wages contribute to the local economy).

I'm not sure what you mean in your later post that most academic/research jobs do not go to "outsiders"; if you mean "outsiders" to academia, well, of course, academic/research jobs usually require a PhD or the equivalent and in the course of getting that credential, one becomes an insider. That's a truism. If you mean that they don't go to people outside the region, you are very much mistaken. Faculty jobs are advertised and filled through what is a national and sometimes international job market; as are many of the research positions at places like UPMC. Pitt, CMU, and UPMC are bringing new (highly educated) people (with good salaries) on an on-going basis.

Do you have evidence showing that non-faculty jobs at Pitt or CMU pay significantly less than non-professional jobs at Google or AmGen? I'm guessing the gap is due to market forces, i.e. a business administrator may well be willing to work at Pitt and get tuition benefits, health insurance, and a fantastic 403b deal--and much more job security--in exchange for the lower base salary than they would be getting at a corporate office. So yes, an economy built on eds and meds seems to put less money in wages into the local economy right away, but on the other hand, seems to offer somewhat more stable employment and perhaps a healthier long-term financial outlook for the local workforce. In other words, one needs to define "good" in "good job." Good for what and for whom? (For various reasons, these jobs are harder to out-source than corporate or industrial jobs, although we have to make sure we don't get too concentrated in health care just as our big senior population declines... Sorry everyone to get a little morbid.)

I agree with you that Pitt and CMU seem to generate fewer spin-offs than comparable institutions. This seems to have something to with those schools and their scientists not catching the entrepreneurial spirit early enough to rise the venture capital wave of the 90s and something to do with there not being as much venture capital in Pittsburgh as in other areas.

By the way, the price of education in Pennsylvania doesn't seem to have much to do with the local job market. If anything, the high cost of education should dissuade students from coming here and thus we should have fewer graduates unable to find jobs here, but that doesn't seem to be happening.
(Also, minor point: I think you meant post-secondary public education, right? Secondary public education isn't great either but I think you were talking college and universities, yes?)

[likepgh]

One other point:

And of course a biologist at AmGen makes more money than a biology professor at Pitt but the biology professor at Pitt may take the deal because he can get tenure while the biologist at AmGen says ok, I'll take the risk of getting laid off.
(And the biology professor at Pitt makes more than the French literature professor because the French literature professor doesn't even have the "corporate" option.)

So the average wages at AmGen are always going to be higher than the average wages at Pitt and the average wages at Google are always going to be higher than the average wages at CMU. I agree with Humanoid that the Pittsburgh region would do better if our profile were more like Boston: i.e. meds/eds + the corporate presence that feeds off the meds/eds. But if I have to choose between having CMU in my region or Google, I'll take CMU.

[BrianTH]

For my five words:

Relatively stable; depends on field.

A little more detail:

As has been frequently noted, Pittsburgh's recent job growth has come in sectors such as business and professional services, health, and tech-related. In contrast, retail, leisure, transportation, government services, and so on have not done very well. One common theme here is that Pittsburgh is doing relatively well in knowledge-based sectors and not so well in sectors depending on population growth, all of which supports the view that Pittsburgh is still in the middle of a transition from a larger industrial city to a smaller service-center city.

On one minor subject: I think it is fair to say that Pittsburgh does indeed have a relatively robust set of colleges and universities for a city its size, particularly with respect to the city proper. As I have suggested before, that makes some parts of the city, most notably parts of the East End, feel a bit like an overgrown college town.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

In what sense? Pit is just your average university. CMU is good, but its extremely expensive. The other schools in the area are rather expensive too. Secondary public education in PA in general isn't good, its too expensive and the schools aren't that great.

And just to note, the local universities don't directly create that many good jobs. Outside of academic employment (which doesn't work like a normal job market...) the majority of the jobs created by the universities are low/med wage jobs. Its nothing like having say a company like Google, Amgen etc in the area.

I have to respectfully disagree. Many, many people choose cities/towns according to what university systems are available. Not always necessarily just because of the job options available, but because what a great university has to offer the city as a whole. In my opinion, the universities in Pittsburgh have greatly helped sustain the type of people who choose to stay or move to this area. I would much rather live in an area that has great universities than in a nice town city that has great weather and cheap housing (say... Phoenix) than live in an area that has terrible colleges.

After living in Scottsdale (Phoenix) for 7 years, I can say that as a whole, the area is suffering because of it's lack of a great education system. I've known MORE people who have moved AWAY from Phoenix BECAUSE of it's lack of a great university system than have stayed because of the other options it offered. That is one reason why I refused to allow my daughter to attend an Arizona university. And one reason why we didn't stay in Phoenix. Just my perspective...

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by Humanoid

No, Google didn't move to Pittsburgh. Although, they do have a presence in the city as they do in many areas. This is much different than Google relocating their head quarters to Pittsburgh or even some major operations.


Curious, are you referring to yourself here? It doesn't take much research to find that a number of other states have better public secondary school systems than Pennsylvania. Despite being a decent sized state PA only has two decent public universities and the tuition is nearly double that of better quality universities in other states. The community colleges are also lacking both in terms of cost and quality.

Humanoid, I like you and usually agree with much that you say. However, I don't think it's fair to base how good a university is by its cost. There are many reasons why certain universities charge more than others. Say - a more challenging education, better access to highly qualified professors and professionals, better internships, to name a few.

[Humanoid]

That's right, academic employment works differently than the "normal" job market. But the jobs are still jobs

But we are talking about people that want to get jobs in Pittsburgh not someone that wants to open a Donut store (Pittsburgh, really needs a good one btw!). For someone looking for a job (what this post is about) the universities don't offer much outside of lower wage jobs.

Faculty jobs are advertised and filled through what is a national and sometimes international job market; as are many of the research positions at places like UPMC. Pitt, CMU, and UPMC are bringing new (highly educated) people (with good salaries) on an on-going basis.

I'm not talking about Faculty jobs (which I explicitly excluded in my statement), rather research positions. Most of these positions are filled within the university, even when they post a job listing for them they are more often than not given to "insiders". But I would say most research jobs at universities never get listed in the first place. Rather they are given to a graduate student that is already familiar with the work. Also, the salaries aren't particularly good.

But if I have to choose between having CMU in my region or Google, I'll take CMU.

I'm not trying to argue that the universities aren't good for the city, just that the jobs they create (directly) rarely help people who are looking to make Pittsburgh their home. Yet "education" is often cited as a big employment factor in Pittsburgh.

By the way, the price of education in Pennsylvania doesn't seem to have much to do with the local job market.

Why not? The more expensive your local education is the less people will go to college. This makes the work force in Pennsylvania less desirable for businesses that requires a high skilled worker base. This is one area where I think states like California get it right, in California you can get a 4-year degree for only $8,000. When I moved to Pittsburgh one of the things I found so odd was all the smallish private colleges that existed, the landscape is much different than in a state that has affordable post-secondary education (and yes I'm talking about university/college).

However, I don't think it's fair to base how good a university is by its cost.

You said "university system", I think the cost of such system is a factor in how good it is. If few residents can afford the system, then who cares?

There are many reasons why certain universities charge more than others.

Sure, like state and local politicians handing out money to the well connected instead of helping the people in their state/community getting an education at a price they can afford. Like much in life there isn't a big correlation between price and quality.

After living in Scottsdale (Phoenix) for 7 years, I can say that as a whole, the area is suffering because of it's lack of a great education system.

Okay, and so is Pennsylvania. I have no idea whether the education system in Arizona is worse than Pennsylvania or not. All I know is that I would pick Pittsburgh over Scottsdale (or anywhere in Arizona for that matter) any day of the weak.

[globalburgh]

PA universities and colleges are in high demand, particularly when you look at other states:

In sheer numbers, New York’s array of coveted universities attracts the most students from other states, followed by California and Pennsylvania, according to a March report from the Education Department showing the comings and goings of first-time degree- and certificate-seeking students for fall 2004. Wisconsin and Ohio, deep in the Rust Belt, are now exporting more students than they import.

Where students choose to attend is traditionally seen as a barometer of a state’s higher-education appeal. But the picture is far more nuanced. Lack of capacity (New Jersey) and soaring tuition (California) will stem an influx of out-of-state students. Other states (Georgia) try to keep their residents at home by offering juicy tuition incentives to well-performing high school graduates.

Sounds like more ax-grinding from Humanoid.

[Katiana]

OK, since we seem to be off the topic of "Pittsburgh economy in five words" and onto colleges, I will offer my observations on this conversation.

I agree that a good university (or universities) is an assest to any city. In fact, off the top of my head, I can't think of any non-suburban cities that don't have a college/university. Someone will probably disagree, but I really can't think of any.

RE: the university situation in Pittsburgh-Pitt and CMU achieved their status before the collapse of the steel industry in Pittsbugh. Both are old institutions. In the mid-sixties, Pitt was taken over by the state b/c it was going under. Around the same time, Carnegie Institute of Technology merged with the Mellon Institute to become CMU. At that time, the population of Pittsburgh was much larger than it is now. So to say that Pittsburgh is doing well for "a city of its size" is a bit misleading. Pittsburgh had a big education "industry" long before the collapse of the steel industry, despite what you newbies might read in the P-G about Pittsburgh's "new economy".

OTOH, the size of a city doesn't always have anything to do with the stature of the college. Look at the large state universities. Many are located in college towns that exist mostly for the purpose of the university. I offer State College; Ithaca, NY; Bloomington, IN; Champaign, IL and many others as examples. They are the economic powerhouses of their communities. There is virtually no other economy in those towns.

[Humanoid]

In sheer numbers, New York’s array of coveted universities attracts the most students from other states, followed by California and Pennsylvania, according to a March report from the Education Department

Yeah, this has little to do with what I'm talking about. Pennsylvania has a number of very good private schools, but what do they have to do with Pennsylvania's "school system"? They are private, they aren't run by the state. I explicitly stated I was talking about public education. The fact that Pennsylvania has schools like University of Pennsylvania, Swarthmore College etc is all great and all, but it doesn't help those that don't have $120k+ to spend on education.

Regardless, my main point was about jobs.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Katiana

RE: the university situation in Pittsburgh-Pitt and CMU achieved their status before the collapse of the steel industry in Pittsbugh. Both are old institutions. In the mid-sixties, Pitt was taken over by the state b/c it was going under. Around the same time, Carnegie Institute of Technology merged with the Mellon Institute to become CMU. At that time, the population of Pittsburgh was much larger than it is now. So to say that Pittsburgh is doing well for "a city of its size" is a bit misleading.

You have provided an explanation for why Pittsburgh has an unusually robust collection of colleges and universities for a city of its size (they are in part a legacy of its former boom eras), but that doesn't make the outcome any less true. A similar story could be told about a lot of the city's cultural institutions (that they are a legacy of its former boom eras). For example, it is perhaps unlikely that Pittsburgh would have a top quality Symphony Orchestra if it hadn't had its steel boom. But that explanation for why a city of Pittsburgh's size has a top quality Symphony Orchestra doesn't change the fact that it does in fact have a top quality Symphony Orchestra.