Interesting story from the PG

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by welder

Let's see, where to begin? Let's start with the education. What kid in America, who pays attention in school and works hard at it, can't go to college? Grants, loans, scholarships? Somebody might not end up in Harvard or Yale, but a college education is pretty easy to obtain in America in this day an age. That is, if a kid works hard and REALLY wants it.

As far as me bitching about it? What bitching? I stated that "I wasn't cut out for the white collar world". That doesn't change the fact that I know HOW IMPORTANT education is, just wasn't or ain't for me. The man keeping me down? I got into a union trade as a young kid. At 20 yrs old, I was making more than 90% of Pittsburgh adults.

Well, okay. I don't get your point on education. Sure, most people can get into college, but some people have a pretty ****ty start.

Great. Union labor. Good for you. Thanks for getting all greedy and corrupt, and using your influence to price American labor out of the global market. Maybe if you hadn't done that then I wouldn't have to sink myself $100,000 in debt to find a decent job. You guys did the country a real solid there.

Am I Republican enough for you now?

P.S. I also want to thank you for taking 10% of my paycheck while I worked at a grocery store and not giving me anything back for it. I'm sure glad the union was there to protect me.

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by welder

P.S. I also have done my fare share of travelling. I've spent years of my life on the road travelling around America. As well as time abroad, so, I've seen a thing or two in my day.

Well, how about you don't make assumptions about me and I won't make them about you from now on. For the sound of things, making fewer assumptions would be good for your general outlook on the world.

[welder]

Originally Posted by supersoulty

Yeah, I am so very very Liberal that I DO own a gun collection, and I DO go hunting, and I DO go to church at least twice a month. I didn't like those comments, but I don't use them a fuel to justify my resentment of a whole group of people the way you do.

The better approach might be to say, "well, the lady has a point." and as long as people are willing to discuss it, I am fine. I wish we could discuss racial issues honestly in this country. But as long as people like you run around using words like "us" and "them" and "they ALL (capitalization yours, BTW)" we aren't gonna have that, now are we?

And frankly, if people "like me" were in charge, Obama wouldn't have made it past Iowa. The difference is, my dislike of Obama isn't racial. In fact, I think Obama sets Black people back, because it was a dishonest way to get around our racial problems, at best. Remember early in the campaign when most the majority of African Americans weren't voting Obama? There is a reason for that, and that's that calling Obama "the Black candidate" is like calling me "the Irish Catholic candidate" because I like to get wasted on St. Patrick's Day and sing "Danny Boy"... I actually am Irish Catholic, but you get my point.

Realistically, Obama's rise has nothing to do with the black community becoming empowered, and it sure as Hell hasn't signified a new step in race relations in this country, as people in general are being more dishonest than ever about it.

See what I'm talking about? How you said that I should have worded it, you said a "different approach". The 'sugar coating' and PC crap is maybe your style, but I like to shoot straight from the hip! You actually think that I would word a response like that? I'd sound like a MARY JANE or something. Maybe that's how you talk, but I'm not big on all that PC stuff.

Stay out of the Lawerenceville bars too! (they might look at you funny)LOL

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by welder

See what I'm talking about? How you said that I should have worded it, you said a "different approach". The 'sugar coating' and PC crap is maybe your style, but I like to shoot straight from the hip! You actually think that I would word a response like that? I'd sound like a MARY JANE or something. Maybe that's how you talk, but I'm not big on all that PC stuff.

Stay out of the Lawerenceville bars too! (they might look at you funny)LOL

So in otherwords you enjoy sounding like a perfect jackass. Okay, I think we have established this fact.

[welder]

Originally Posted by supersoulty

Well, okay. I don't get your point on education. Sure, most people can get into college, but some people have a pretty ****ty start.

Great. Union labor. Good for you. Thanks for getting all greedy and corrupt, and using your influence to price American labor out of the global market. Maybe if you hadn't done that then I wouldn't have to sink myself $100,000 in debt to find a decent job. You guys did the country a real solid there.

Am I Republican enough for you now?

P.S. I also want to thank you for taking 10% of my paycheck while I worked at a grocery store and not giving me anything back for it. I'm sure glad the union was there to protect me.

What don't you understand? A kid who grows up in poverty or bad enviroment, who wants an education BADLY enough will get it, PERIOD! It's called SPUNK or MOXY! If a kids gets up everday and applies himself, anything is possible. Certainly a college education in America. Might not be Ivy league, but they'll get into some college.

You might have been born in Pittsburgh, but you certainly weren't RAISED here. Your attitutude towards union labor is laughable! You think that the 'working men and women' of america should all be working for $10 an hr? Wow, you actually sound JEALOUS of the union workers. You shouldn't let that eat you up inside. You should, go to one of MANY bars on the northside, where alot of UNION ironworkers, boilermakers, bricklayers, and laborer's hang out. And VOICE your opinon to them! See how and what they do! LOL

Tell them your from the mean streets of Dubois or something! LOL By the way, have you ever walked on a beam up in the air? Or worked on a blast furnace? Or ran a jack hammer all day? Or welded in some bad position and get your eyes flashed? So, in REALITY, you don't have a clue what they deserve an hr, do you? If your a 100 grand in the hole, don't blame the UNIONS. And don't think we should work for peanuts at a HARD profession either!

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by welder

What don't you understand? A kid who grows up in poverty or bad enviroment, who wants an education BADLY enough will get it, PERIOD! It's called SPUNK or MOXY! If a kids gets up everday and applies himself, anything is possible. Certainly a college education in America. Might not be Ivy league, but they'll get into some college.

You might have been born in Pittsburgh, but you certainly weren't RAISED here. Your attitutude towards union labor is laughable! You think that the 'working men and women' of america should all be working for $10 an hr? Wow, you actually sound JEALOUS of the union workers. You shouldn't let that eat you up inside. You should, go to one of MANY bars on the northside, where alot of UNION ironworkers, boilermakers, bricklayers, and laborer's hang out. And VOICE your opinon to them! See how and what they do! LOL

Tell them your from the mean streets of Dubois or something! LOL By the way, have you ever walked on a beam up in the air? Or worked on a blast furnace? Or ran a jack hammer all day? Or welded in some bad position and get your eyes flashed? So, in REALITY, you don't have a clue what they deserve an hr, do you? If your a 100 grand in the hole, don't blame the UNIONS. And don't think we should work for peanuts at a HARD profession either!

No, frankly, I haven't done any of those things, and I won't ever be able to, because union workers chased out all the industry in a bid to get outrageously high wages and benefits that were worth far more than the labor they provided. And thanks to that, most people in American now do work for around $10/hour. Had the union "bosses" (guys who wear suits and make as much as CEO's) been willing to be reasonable, I might actually know someone under the age of 50 who has worked a blast furnace.

As it turns out, I do know alot of people who work at GE Locomotive in Erie, PA, where I worked and went to school for five years, and when I here the stories about how the unions work over there, it is no wonder to me that first the Japanese, and now the Chinese, are kicking our asses.

Working Hard? Hardly working, would be closer to the mark... and I know that is far from original, but it most aptly applies to the situation. I spent my whole life, growing up, around bricklayers, and rail workers (my uncle), iron workers (my grandfather, for one) and guys who worked jobs in the glass industry. Like I said, that's what my area was all about. So believe me, I am painfully aware of how hard some of them worked, but also painfully aware of the excesses and the sense of entitlement.

And I never claimed that the street of DuBois were "mean". In fact, if you want to have a look I say quite the opposite in this post from another thread:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/1572109-post11.html

But the area is quite depressed and hopeless if you don't have a law degree or a M.D.

[supersoulty]

BTW... isn't it odd how, for one, the only car factories in the United States that are prospering are non-union, and owned by names like Toyota, Honda and Subaru? The workers there aren't making the ridiculous salaries of the workers at places like Ford and GM, but they aren't bad, and unlike the workers at the "American" Companies, at least they are working. I think Ford has more guys laid off right now than they do guys who are working.

And last I checked, the American steel industry is still doing pretty decently in Alabama... again, without the "help" of union labor.

[welder]

Originally Posted by supersoulty

No, frankly, I haven't done any of those things, and I won't ever be able to, because union workers chased out all the industry in a bid to get outrageously high wages and benefits that were worth far more than the labor they provided. And thanks to that, most people in American now do work for around $10/hour. Had the union "bosses" (guys who wear suits and make as much as CEO's) been willing to be reasonable, I might actually know someone under the age of 50 who has worked a blast furnace.

As it turns out, I do know alot of people who work at GE Locomotive in Erie, PA, where I worked and went to school for five years, and when I here the stories about how the unions work over there, it is no wonder to me that first the Japanese, and now the Chinese, are kicking our asses.

Working Hard? Hardly working, would be closer to the mark... and I know that is far from original, but it most aptly applies to the situation. I spent my whole life, growing up, around bricklayers, and rail workers (my uncle), iron workers (my grandfather, for one) and guys who worked jobs in the glass industry. Like I said, that's what my area was all about. So believe me, I am painfully aware of how hard some of them worked, but also painfully aware of the excesses and the sense of entitlement.

And I never claimed that the street of DuBois were "mean". In fact, if you want to have a look I say quite the opposite in this post from another thread:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/1572109-post11.html

But the area is quite depressed and hopeless if you don't have a law degree or a M.D.

Well, I'm nowhere near 50, and I worked on a 'blast furnace' several months ago. How old are you, 23 or 24 yrs old? (Im guessing cause you said you're a grad student). If I was you, I'd stay in the SAFE educated neighborhood of Shadyside. If you express ANY of these views in a rougher neighborhood bar, you'll have bitten off more than you can chew. That much, I can GUARANTEE!

First of all, the UNION tradesmen, work out in the FIELD, not some factory. It's a whole different animal. And for you to say, "hardly working", just shows your age an ignornce. Places like Mexico and China, the people are payed SLAVE wages. Is that what you want in America?

Or is that only the wages that uneducated people in America should make. It's funny that you leave out the fact that the top 2% of the weathiest Americans has grown by leaps and bounds since 1980. But the working class has lost, when you factor in inflation. A CEO back in the mid 1970's made 40 times what the floor employee made.

You know what the same CEO makes now compared to the floor employee, it's 400 times! How about the bailout on Wall Street? Talk about greed! The one CEO was only at the company for 3 weeks. His getting like 18 million in SEVERANCE PAY! 3 weeks of work! NOW, am I A DEMOCRAT? You anger should be directed at the greedy republicans, not some STEAM FITTER from the SOUTHSIDE!

Japan is highly devolped country with one of the LARGEST economy's in the world. They use to be only 2nd behind us. I think China has surpassed them now though. But the Japs, live like Americans. They have strong unions and good wages there too. The cost of living there is crazy. A company would never save any money moving there.

You should really get your facts straight before spitting out your agenda. By the way, by your age, I had a 100 grand in the Bank! Not in DEBT! So, you shouldn't hate the UNIONS, they improve ALL our lives.

[welder]

Originally Posted by supersoulty

BTW... isn't it odd how, for one, the only car factories in the United States that are prospering are non-union, and owned by names like Toyota, Honda and Subaru? The workers there aren't making the ridiculous salaries of the workers at places like Ford and GM, but they aren't bad, and unlike the workers at the "American" Companies, at least they are working. I think Ford has more guys laid off right now than they do guys who are working.

And last I checked, the American steel industry is still doing pretty decently in Alabama... again, without the "help" of union labor.

Smaller cars with better gas milage isn't the reason? The big auto makers in Detroit were way too dependent on the SUV. They're getting killed now because of it. Ford is opening a new Plant in Michigan. So apparently, they still think they can make a profit up north.

Are you aware the the south has a lower cost of living? And that wages and unions were always low down there. I guess you like though. You hate to see an American who don't have a grad degree from CMU, make a good buc. Wow, you're like a little green monster. You're filled with JELOUSY!

[supersoulty]

Originally Posted by welder

Well, I'm nowhere near 50, and I worked on a 'blast furnace' several months ago. How old are you, 23 or 24 yrs old? (Im guessing cause you said you're a grad student). If I was you, I'd stay in the SAFE educated neighborhood of Shadyside. If you express ANY of these views in a rougher neighborhood bar, you'll have bitten off more than you can chew. That much, I can GUARANTEE!

First of all, the UNION tradesmen, work out in the FIELD, not some factory. It's a whole different animal. And for you to say, "hardly working", just shows your age an ignornce. Places like Mexico and China, the people are payed SLAVE wages. Is that what you want in America?

Or is that only the wages that uneducated people in America should make. It's funny that you leave out the fact that the top 2% of the weathiest Americans has grown by leaps and bounds since 1980. But the working class has lost, when you factor in inflation. A CEO back in the mid 1970's made 40 times what the floor employee made.

You know what the same CEO makes now compared to the floor employee, it's 400 times! How about the bailout on Wall Street? Talk about greed! The one CEO was only at the company for 3 weeks. His getting like 18 million in SEVERANCE PAY! 3 weeks of work! NOW, am I A DEMOCRAT? You anger should be directed at the greedy republicans, not some STEAM FITTER from the SOUTHSIDE!

Japan is highly devolped country with one of the LARGEST economy's in the world. They use to be only 2nd behind us. I think China has surpassed them now though. But the Japs, live like Americans. They have strong unions and good wages there too. The cost of living there is crazy. A company would never save any money moving there.

You should really get your facts straight before spitting out your agenda. By the way, by your age, I had a 100 grand in the Bank! Not in DEBT! So, you shouldn't hate the UNIONS, they improve ALL our lives.

Smaller cars with better gas milage isn't the reason? The big auto makers in Detroit were way too dependent on the SUV. They're getting killed now because of it. Ford is opening a new Plant in Michigan. So apparently, they still think they can make a profit up north.

Are you aware the the south has a lower cost of living? And that wages and unions were always low down there. I guess you like though. You hate to see an American who don't have a grad degree from CMU, make a good buc. Wow, you're like a little green monster. You're filled with JELOUSY!

Unions are a 20th century institution with a 19th century mentality. I am well versed in how that mentality works. I remember spending the summer days of my youth shoveling coal and listening to the old hands talk about how, "back in the day, you used to only be able to shop at the company store. And because of that, you would get a line on your payslip every wekk, because you owed your whole salary to the company. They used to call that the snake line. And thanks to that, you could never get the money to leave the mine," etc, etc, etc. Now, this all happened before the 1920's. They were about 50-60, and this was between 95 and 01.

I have no problem with Unions in practice, but in theory, they don't mess with new economic realities very well, and have been utterly unwilling to adapt. While businesses have had to adapt. Trust me, it takes alot to make a company consider relocation.

American autos were in decline long before the current gas crisis. You know that. And the reason the South was able to keep its industries was because the workers were willing to work for $15/hour and a 401k plan, instead of $30/hour and a full pension, and they allowed employers to mechanize and modernize. And guess what, they have jobs now, and former steel workers in Pittsburgh do not... glass workers in Brockway do not... and I can go on and on.

Frankly, you move off of a false assumption, which is that being anti-union must mean being anti-labor, because unions are good for labor. Well, I don't see much "labor" left around most of these places, do you?

Far from being "jealous" (don't go out of your way to mischaracterize my positions now) I wish more people had good paying labor jobs. But, alas, many unions scuffed at lowering wages and benefits, even a bit, or reducing the labor force to modernize, which would have kept more jobs around. Now, the best jobs most people can get are service jobs, which pay significantly less. And frankly, the tech industry doesn't pay that huge either. All because $15/hour isn't enough. Well, apparently, the market decided that it was. And if you are looking for the reasons behind the wage gap, there they are.

No, I'm not at all jealous of American laborers... I just wish they had left something for the rest of us while they were busy covering their asses. Personally, I would like to have been able to leave high school and work in a mill. And I would have liked if any of my friends could have done the same.

BTW... I go to Pitt, not CMU. And I'm not a techy, or an MBA... Masters in Public Administration, Urban and Regional Affairs. Unless I do really well for myself in the field, I'm not gonna get rich.