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Thread summary:

Pittsburgh: race inequality, racial diversity, policies, cost of living, urban renewal.

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Old 09-27-2008, 11:09 PM
 
1,139 posts, read 2,489,552 times
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Please don't make me regret posting this. The last thing I want this article to do is start a race war on here as some of the threads in the past couple months have. I just felt it was well written and a bit eye opening.

Sunday Forum: Loving/hating Pittsburgh

 
Old 09-28-2008, 08:30 AM
 
67 posts, read 233,010 times
Reputation: 29
Wow. This was really horrifying. I guess I'm naive, but I would not ever have guessed that could happen in a bar in Pittsburgh (in the city, yet!) in this decade.

I did find myself feeling a little sorry for the girls she went to elementary school with, though. On the one hand, no one likes to feel like a curiosity, and obviously there is the larger issue that PPS is predominantly black (I believe) but her gifted program wasn't, which speaks to the pretty serious inequities in the city. But it would be nice if it were possible, especially for children, to ask well-meaning questions about people of other races and cultures without giving offense. I grew up in a nearly-all-white area and I'm sure I make weird, incorrect assumptions about black culture, Hispanic culture, and so forth just because I don't know any better, and I'm not sure how to know better other than by asking questions and sometimes looking dumb in the process. I'd guess someone growing up in a nearly-all-black environment might similarly make weird, incorrect assumptions about white culture. (On the other hand, maybe these particular girls weren't saying "Wow, I've never seen hair like yours and it looks cool--would you mind if I touch it? You can touch my hair too if you want." Maybe they were saying "Eeeeew! Your hair is weird! Let me touch it! Eeeeew!". That would be a very different thing and definitely offensive.)
 
Old 09-28-2008, 09:20 AM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,398,027 times
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I have read the same on this forum and also other places, but Michelle Massie said it the best.

I agree with "it would be nice if it were possible, especially for children, to ask well-meaning questions about people of other races and cultures without giving offense".

I can relate an anecdote about this issue. We once had a pastor whose kids were adopted from Korea. She got very angry when some other kids in her kids' classroom asked about "slanty eyes". Yet she went ga-ga over my daughter's red hair, and was actually once sort of petting her like she was a puppy or something. She obviously didn't see that as another side of the issue that made her so angry. Kids do have a natural curiosity about things/people that are different. Having this red-headed daughter, I know how kids feel when they are made to feel different, even if it is in a good way. Although she came to embrace her red hair, she got sick of people pointing it out to her, and to tell you the truth, since she lived with us, I really never thought of her as a "redhead", she was just my kid.

But enough rambling; I think this is an important issue, not just in Pittsburgh but everywhere. I have no idea whether the situation in Pgh is worse than in other cities. I had always thought that the mills provided fairly well-paying jobs to blacks, at leasat when they were running.
 
Old 09-28-2008, 11:15 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 2,489,552 times
Reputation: 421
Not being a minority, I wouldn't know, but my assumption is that she was already self conscious entering a room full of white children and feeling "different" and it was hard already sticking out but then being made to look even worse when you have a group of girls feeling your hair.

I think the end result could have been different had these girls been turned into life-long friends but since they shunned her in middle & high school, it just kinda makes the situation even more awkward.
 
Old 09-28-2008, 12:46 PM
 
629 posts, read 898,594 times
Reputation: 67
That article actually made me sick to my stomache! I'm a lifelong Democrat, but I hope Obama gets crushed in the election. I'm from Pittsburgh as well as all my generations of family (mostly the Garfield neighborhood). You think Garfield ALWAYS looked the way it does now?

She talks about all the AFFLUENT blacks in Dc. And how many of them are transplants? You think Dc is some kind of black MECCA? You think, me being white, walking thru parts of the northside as a kid that the blacks didn't say stuff to me? I used to walk up Federal St on a daily basis. Believe me, they ALWAYS had something to say.

How about the fact that 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock, compared to 20% of whites. When are black people going to start taking responsibility for themselves? Don't have kids out of wedlock, get educated, and get on with your life. Quit trying to blame the white man for ALL your problems. Would any black person on this forum want to be living in Africa? Or have been born an raised there? This is America, you can do whatever you want to. Many people came from poverty and achieved great things.

Blacks make up 13% of the US population. Yet, they are ALL voting for Obama. But, as white people, if WE do the SAME, were're RACIST? Alot of them made that clear with the HATRED they showed towards Hillary Clinton. Not saying they should have backed her. But, when one of 'their own' was running, you seen how quickly they turned on her. It got downright vicious sometimes. Racisms goes BOTH WAYS! I could walk into an ALL black bar and get treated the same.
 
Old 09-28-2008, 02:26 PM
 
353 posts, read 823,639 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by welder View Post
That article actually made me sick to my stomache! I'm a lifelong Democrat, but I hope Obama gets crushed in the election. I'm from Pittsburgh as well as all my generations of family (mostly the Garfield neighborhood). You think Garfield ALWAYS looked the way it does now?

She talks about all the AFFLUENT blacks in Dc. And how many of them are transplants? You think Dc is some kind of black MECCA? You think, me being white, walking thru parts of the northside as a kid that the blacks didn't say stuff to me? I used to walk up Federal St on a daily basis. Believe me, they ALWAYS had something to say.

How about the fact that 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock, compared to 20% of whites. When are black people going to start taking responsibility for themselves? Don't have kids out of wedlock, get educated, and get on with your life. Quit trying to blame the white man for ALL your problems. Would any black person on this forum want to be living in Africa? Or have been born an raised there? This is America, you can do whatever you want to. Many people came from poverty and achieved great things.

Blacks make up 13% of the US population. Yet, they are ALL voting for Obama. But, as white people, if WE do the SAME, were're RACIST? Alot of them made that clear with the HATRED they showed towards Hillary Clinton. Not saying they should have backed her. But, when one of 'their own' was running, you seen how quickly they turned on her. It got downright vicious sometimes. Racisms goes BOTH WAYS! I could walk into an ALL black bar and get treated the same.
And yet the attitude you present is not going to help the situation.

"You think, me being white, walking thru parts of the northside as a kid that the blacks didn't say stuff to me?"

"The blacks"? Was it all of "them" or just some individuals?

"Alot of them made that clear with the HATRED they showed towards Hillary Clinton."

"Them" and "they"? There you go again. At least this time you used a qualifier though.

The reason for the problems in Garfield have nothing to do with the fact that the people living their are black. Its because they were mostly uprooted from relatively affluent communities on The Hill to make way from the urban "renewal" projects that were championed as guaranteed to turn the city around. It doesn't matter if it is just a mile away, the effects of being forcibly mass moved from one place to another are disastrous to any population.

Is that an excuse? No. It's an explanation. But its a damn good one.

Of course, it didn't help that most of the white people with money flooded out of the area because, in their mind, a black person moving in next door was a sure sign that the neighborhood was going down hill. That's where the term "there goes the neighborhood" originated. Any sign of minorities moving into an area, and property values would sink into the basement. Was it because blacks were bad? No. It was because of Redlining, and the fact that financial institutions (banks) flaunted racists policies that were geared around valuing property, mortgages and assets on criteria that were biased against minorities.

Usually, the migration of just a few black families into a neighborhood was followed by an agent from the bank knocking on your door and offering you a "good price" on your home so you could "get out now, before the place was swarming with negros." They would then sell the house to one of those black families for twice what they paid for it, or sell it to the government for "urban renewal". They would then continue to devalue the property as more blacks moved in to try to force the last of the whites to sell. And thus, there was no appreciation of wealth either in the neighborhood, or for the individual black family.

Yes, racism does swing both ways to be sure. But looking at the problems in the Black community as fundamentally racial does nothing to help the situation. Most of the problems in the black community are economic. You mention pregnancy out of wedlock, etc... you see similar figures in parts of white rural Appalachia. What do the two have in common?

And you can't deny that the facts now show that Pittsburgh is the worst city in America to be a black person. We are last in median income for black families.

I should be the one on here railing about "the darkies" right? I'm a lifelong Republican. But that doesn't mean I am incapable of seeing the situation in a realistic manner and understanding both sides.

Democrats, such as yourself, on the other hand seem to have recently rediscovered their Jim Crow roots. It must **** you off that, after all these years worth of handouts, and granting special considerations to minorities, that they now have "turned on" you. How dare they think about leaving the plantation, right? After all you have done for them.

I might not be voting for Obama, but at least its not racial (though far from all people on "my side" can claim that). I for one am glad to see that many African Americans finally feel empowered. That's a positive first step. Once more black individuals are empowered, make decent money, and have better economic prospects starting out life, more will vote Republican anyway.

HAHA
 
Old 09-28-2008, 03:09 PM
 
629 posts, read 898,594 times
Reputation: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by supersoulty View Post
And yet the attitude you present is not going to help the situation.

"You think, me being white, walking thru parts of the northside as a kid that the blacks didn't say stuff to me?"

"The blacks"? Was it all of "them" or just some individuals?

"Alot of them made that clear with the HATRED they showed towards Hillary Clinton."

"Them" and "they"? There you go again. At least this time you used a qualifier though.

The reason for the problems in Garfield have nothing to do with the fact that the people living their are black. Its because they were mostly uprooted from relatively affluent communities on The Hill to make way from the urban "renewal" projects that were championed as guaranteed to turn the city around. It doesn't matter if it is just a mile away, the effects of being forcibly mass moved from one place to another are disastrous to any population.

Is that an excuse? No. It's an explanation. But its a damn good one.

Of course, it didn't help that most of the white people with money flooded out of the area because, in their mind, a black person moving in next door was a sure sign that the neighborhood was going down hill. That's where the term "there goes the neighborhood" originated. Any sign of minorities moving into an area, and property values would sink into the basement. Was it because blacks were bad? No. It was because of Redlining, and the fact that financial institutions (banks) flaunted racists policies that were geared around valuing property, mortgages and assets on criteria that were biased against minorities.

Usually, the migration of just a few black families into a neighborhood was followed by an agent from the bank knocking on your door and offering you a "good price" on your home so you could "get out now, before the place was swarming with negros." They would then sell the house to one of those black families for twice what they paid for it, or sell it to the government for "urban renewal". They would then continue to devalue the property as more blacks moved in to try to force the last of the whites to sell. And thus, there was no appreciation of wealth either in the neighborhood, or for the individual black family.

Yes, racism does swing both ways to be sure. But looking at the problems in the Black community as fundamentally racial does nothing to help the situation. Most of the problems in the black community are economic. You mention pregnancy out of wedlock, etc... you see similar figures in parts of white rural Appalachia. What do the two have in common?

And you can't deny that the facts now show that Pittsburgh is the worst city in America to be a black person. We are last in median income for black families.

I should be the one on here railing about "the darkies" right? I'm a lifelong Republican. But that doesn't mean I am incapable of seeing the situation in a realistic manner and understanding both sides.

Democrats, such as yourself, on the other hand seem to have recently rediscovered their Jim Crow roots. It must **** you off that, after all these years worth of handouts, and granting special considerations to minorities, that they now have "turned on" you. How dare they think about leaving the plantation, right? After all you have done for them.

I might not be voting for Obama, but at least its not racial (though far from all people on "my side" can claim that). I for one am glad to see that many African Americans finally feel empowered. That's a positive first step. Once more black individuals are empowered, make decent money, and have better economic prospects starting out life, more will vote Republican anyway.

HAHA

LOL LOL LOL The problems in Garfield, are because of the Civic Arena? LOL I'm getting a cramp I'm laughing so hard! The Arena was built when? This is what I mean when I say that black people ALWAYS want to hold onto the past, and BLAME the past on their problems. I don't care what race someone is, if you're educated, you're educated, PERIOD! The %'s I gave were on a national level, not specific to one city or region.

The cost of living in Pittsburgh, is probably the LOWEST of ANY MAJOR city in America. You can make $ 25 grand a yr and be a home owner, no problem WHATSOEVER! It's not IMPOSSIBLE to find a $12 an hr job in the burgh. So, you can cite whatever stats you want, I ain't buying it. $20 grand houses are not hard to find in Pittsburgh (not saying they're going to be palaces)

"Jim Crow roots", no, after seeing Obama's preacher 'condemn whitey' was enough for me (popeye's a punk, if Obama never heard statements like that before over the 20+ yrs attending that church). And his wife with that comment that "This is the FIRST time that I've been proud of America", was icing on the cake.

What about what she said or her friend? Was it every patron in that bar? Or was it just the bartender who felt that way? We could play these games ALL day.

For the most part, blacks KILL blacks. I never hear about a GANG LOAD of white kids doing DRIVE-BYS. There's a reason that whites don't like living in black neighborhoods, SAFETY! Has nothing to do with being RACIST. Nobody's saying that ALL blacks are thugs or criminals. But black neighborhoods (even when compared to poor white neighborhoods) are WAY more dangerous.

Blacks need to look inside their own communities, and fix them from within. A kid of ANY race born WITHOUT a father firgure around, will ALWAYS have a greater chance of dropping out of school, get involved with drugs, etc. EVERY study shows and proves that. I'm not being racist either.

Bill Cosby said it and he got 'crucified for it. How about Jesse Jackson's comment about Obama, when Obama said things like 'responsibilty for blacks'. Jesse didn't want to hear ANY of that. It's easier and more PROFITABLE for him to blame the WHITE man. Did you know that Jesse Jackson admitted when he was younger and work at a country club, he used to SPIT in the white people's SALADS! The 'GREAT REV' that he is.....
 
Old 09-28-2008, 05:07 PM
 
353 posts, read 823,639 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by welder View Post
LOL LOL LOL The problems in Garfield, are because of the Civic Arena? LOL I'm getting a cramp I'm laughing so hard! The Arena was built when? This is what I mean when I say that black people ALWAYS want to hold onto the past, and BLAME the past on their problems. I don't care what race someone is, if you're educated, you're educated, PERIOD! The %'s I gave were on a national level, not specific to one city or region.

The cost of living in Pittsburgh, is probably the LOWEST of ANY MAJOR city in America. You can make $ 25 grand a yr and be a home owner, no problem WHATSOEVER! It's not IMPOSSIBLE to find a $12 an hr job in the burgh. So, you can cite whatever stats you want, I ain't buying it. $20 grand houses are not hard to find in Pittsburgh (not saying they're going to be palaces)

"Jim Crow roots", no, after seeing Obama's preacher 'condemn whitey' was enough for me (popeye's a punk, if Obama never heard statements like that before over the 20+ yrs attending that church). And his wife with that comment that "This is the FIRST time that I've been proud of America", was icing on the cake.

What about what she said or her friend? Was it every patron in that bar? Or was it just the bartender who felt that way? We could play these games ALL day.

For the most part, blacks KILL blacks. I never hear about a GANG LOAD of white kids doing DRIVE-BYS. There's a reason that whites don't like living in black neighborhoods, SAFETY! Has nothing to do with being RACIST. Nobody's saying that ALL blacks are thugs or criminals. But black neighborhoods (even when compared to poor white neighborhoods) are WAY more dangerous.

Blacks need to look inside their own communities, and fix them from within. A kid of ANY race born WITHOUT a father firgure around, will ALWAYS have a greater chance of dropping out of school, get involved with drugs, etc. EVERY study shows and proves that. I'm not being racist either.

Bill Cosby said it and he got 'crucified for it. How about Jesse Jackson's comment about Obama, when Obama said things like 'responsibilty for blacks'. Jesse didn't want to hear ANY of that. It's easier and more PROFITABLE for him to blame the WHITE man. Did you know that Jesse Jackson admitted when he was younger and work at a country club, he used to SPIT in the white people's SALADS! The 'GREAT REV' that he is.....
I don't know why, but I am feeling generous today, I am just going to refute your points about the specific situation in Pittsburgh, instead of making you feel the way you are coming off right now, and that it to say, like a jackass.

First off, the Civic Arena is only a very small part of the effect that urban "renewal" had on the Hill. The state goal of renewal was to "remake" The Hill. In the 1940's around 90% of the buildings on the Hill were judged by the city to be "sub-standard". The residents didn't seem to think so. The "sub-standard" nature of the Hill was used as pretext to go in and bulldoze most of it over. In the Lower Hill, this was done to make way for the Arena, as you mentioned, highways, and other pet civic projects that have since failed miserably. This alone displaced 8,000, hundreds of businesses, devastated Wiley Ave, which was the commercial and civic center of the community, dislodged churches, and other groups and communities that provided civic anchors and social safety nets, and generally made a huge mess of things.

Now, had they just stuck with that, then things might not have been so bad, but they moved to other parts of the Hill and knocked down residences and businesses to make way for "progress" which is many parts of the Hill meant building government housing projects, single lot housing, in some places, that was sure to be bought up at a high price once The New Hill, was fully forged, the expansion of road ways, first to allow people to drive through the Hill to get from Oakland to Downtown faster, and then to allow people to get around it alltogether. There was a time once when you almost had to go through the Hill to get from Oakland to Downtown. That was good for business, and streets that were never empty were good for safety too.

Anyway, the bottom line is that alot of people and communities were displaced, and these people were overwhelming, and disproportionately black.

A large number of these people, now easily above the 10,000 mark, were "kindly" relocated to housing projects in Homewood. In Homewood, there were no communities. No one knew anyone. No one trusted anyone. That social network that makes a community simply did not exist. Just as importantly, most of the people who were relocated had either lost their businesses, or they were now living far away from their former jobs.

And this is where the larger problems that happened in almost all American cities at this time took over, white flight, decreasing funding in urban areas, general blighting of conditions.

As the populations in Homewood grew, they started to expand inward back towards the city, because East Liberty was the cities second commercial center. And that's when you saw the reaming white families leaving those, once highly prosperous neighborhoods, in an effort to get out while the getting was good, that's where the scenario with the banks I earlier described took hold (its a well worn stereotype that black people don't trust banks... gee, I wonder why).

And this is where the "helpful" hand of urban planning came back into play. You say you are a native of the Burgh, so I don't have to rehash for you the differences between what East Liberty was, and what it had become by the mid-1970's. Again, the efforts to turn East Liberty into a "model community" were all done in the name of progress, and with the best intentions in mind. But the result was the same as what had happened on The Hill. Each time, they intentionally made Black enclaves, where poverty was concentrated and government handouts would be the primary source of income in places that weren't self-sustaining, by taking a place that was self-sustaining and making it "better".

You say that "Black people need to get over the past". But we aren't talking about 1860, here. We are talking about two generation ago, which is not that long in the grand scope of things.
 
Old 09-28-2008, 05:24 PM
 
629 posts, read 898,594 times
Reputation: 67
Quote:
Originally Posted by supersoulty View Post
I don't know why, but I am feeling generous today, I am just going to refute your points about the specific situation in Pittsburgh, instead of making you feel the way you are coming off right now, and that it to say, like a jackass.

First off, the Civic Arena is only a very small part of the effect that urban "renewal" had on the Hill. The state goal of renewal was to "remake" The Hill. In the 1940's around 90% of the buildings on the Hill were judged by the city to be "sub-standard". The residents didn't seem to think so. The "sub-standard" nature of the Hill was used as pretext to go in and bulldoze most of it over. In the Lower Hill, this was done to make way for the Arena, as you mentioned, highways, and other pet civic projects that have since failed miserably. This alone displaced 8,000, hundreds of businesses, devastated Wiley Ave, which was the commercial and civic center of the community, dislodged churches, and other groups and communities that provided civic anchors and social safety nets, and generally made a huge mess of things.

Now, had they just stuck with that, then things might not have been so bad, but they moved to other parts of the Hill and knocked down residences and businesses to make way for "progress" which is many parts of the Hill meant building government housing projects, single lot housing, in some places, that was sure to be bought up at a high price once The New Hill, was fully forged, the expansion of road ways, first to allow people to drive through the Hill to get from Oakland to Downtown faster, and then to allow people to get around it alltogether. There was a time once when you almost had to go through the Hill to get from Oakland to Downtown. That was good for business, and streets that were never empty were good for safety too.

Anyway, the bottom line is that alot of people and communities were displaced, and these people were overwhelming, and disproportionately black.

A large number of these people, now easily above the 10,000 mark, were "kindly" relocated to housing projects in Homewood. In Homewood, there were no communities. No one knew anyone. No one trusted anyone. That social network that makes a community simply did not exist. Just as importantly, most of the people who were relocated had either lost their businesses, or they were now living far away from their former jobs.

And this is where the larger problems that happened in almost all American cities at this time took over, white flight, decreasing funding in urban areas, general blighting of conditions.

As the populations in Homewood grew, they started to expand inward back towards the city, because East Liberty was the cities second commercial center. And that's when you saw the reaming white families leaving those, once highly prosperous neighborhoods, in an effort to get out while the getting was good, that's where the scenario with the banks I earlier described took hold (its a well worn stereotype that black people don't trust banks... gee, I wonder why).

And this is where the "helpful" hand of urban planning came back into play. You say you are a native of the Burgh, so I don't have to rehash for you the differences between what East Liberty was, and what it had become by the mid-1970's. Again, the efforts to turn East Liberty into a "model community" were all done in the name of progress, and with the best intentions in mind. But the result was the same as what had happened on The Hill. Each time, they intentionally made Black enclaves, where poverty was concentrated and government handouts would be the primary source of income in places that weren't self-sustaining, by taking a place that was self-sustaining and making it "better".

You say that "Black people need to get over the past". But we aren't talking about 1860, here. We are talking about two generation ago, which is not that long in the grand scope of things.

The 1940's? Are you serious with that? That's like 3/4 of a CENTURY ago! You even say "two generations ago". How many generations is going to take to get over that? I hope, by atleast the 4th or 5th generation, that ALL the wounds are healed LOL. Build and do the same thing in Shadyside. Displace ALL them people and see how many generations it takes them to land back on their feet! Or even a 'working class' neighborhood like Morningside, see how long it takes them. The 1940's LOL, you really do CRACK me up.
 
Old 09-28-2008, 05:35 PM
 
353 posts, read 823,639 times
Reputation: 79
Quote:
Originally Posted by welder View Post
The 1940's? Are you serious with that? That's like 3/4 of a CENTURY ago! You even say "two generations ago". How many generations is going to take to get over that? I hope, by atleast the 4th or 5th generation, that ALL the wounds are healed LOL. Build and do the same thing in Shadyside. Displace ALL them people and see how many generations it takes them to land back on their feet! Or even a 'working class' neighborhood like Morningside, see how long it takes them. The 1940's LOL, you really do CRACK me up.
No, I changed my mind, you are a damn fool and deserve to be mocked.

For starters, reading comprehension is a good skill to work on. What I said was that the cycle began in the 1940's here in Pittsburgh. If you read on while I recounted all the events that took place, you would see that I took us well up into the last 30 years.

People who live in Shadyside, myself included, are generally white and well off, that makes a big difference. Again, you demonstrate a limited knowledge of the matter.

Here is an article you can read. I am sorry they don't have it in the Plain English version of wiki, but if you have any trouble getting through it, I would be happy to help you out with any big words you might come across.

Urban renewal - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

BTW... I doubt that you talk to any black people, but were you to do so, you would know that Jesse Jackson doesn't have anywhere close to the credibility in the black community as he did in the 1980's. He is generally seen as a joke.
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