which one is the top dog: philadelphia or pittsburgh? (Harrisburg: section 8, best cities)

[PhillyPhan]

no one that i talk to can decide which city is better, philly is a big town with a rich history. pittsburgh is a smaller, but tough as nails type of city. which one owns the title of pennsylvania's greatest city?

[Hopes]

We've got our rich history in Pittsburgh too!

I think it's a toss of the coin.

Both are great cities in their own ways.

[Drover]

Objectively speaking, Philly is obviously the more economically, politically and culturally more important city of the two.

That said, if someone told me I had to live in one city or the other for the rest of my life, it would be Pittsburgh hands-down. Philly seems to have all of Pittsburgh's bad qualities in higher concentrations (crime, urban decay, government incompetence, iffy economy, overall dinginess) with few of its good qualities (cheap housing, interesting topography, overall low cost of living).

The one major thing Philly has going for it versus Pittsburgh is its proximity to NYC.

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by Drover

Philly seems to have all of Pittsburgh's bad qualities in higher concentrations (crime, urban decay, government incompetence, iffy economy, overall dinginess) with few of its good qualities (cheap housing, interesting topography, overall low cost of living).

Some good points and there is no denying Philadlephia has serious crime and poverty issues in the hoods. That being said you gave no points whatsoever for Philadelphias incredible collection high soceity neighborhoods which also differentiates Philadlephia from Pittsburgh on the high end.

Not faulting you as that is just the way it is. Thats a national trend. People tend to see Philadelphia as this god awful social miscreant.

The northeast section of the city which has 400,000 people alone is a nice blue collar stable neighborhood.Manayunk/Roxborough again very stable vibrant neighborhoods with 100K + people.

Center City (population 100,000) is arguably the 3rd most dynamic downtown in the usa, median house (600k). If you walked around center city neighborhoods on a nice spring day it would blow you away. University City adjacent to Center City has an educated in-term population of 100,000 people including the 3rd ranked university in the country(penn). If I showed any of you Chestnut Hill,East Falls,Overbrook,Mt airy sections of the city you would never ever want to leave. Fairmount Park the largest park of any city in the USA sprawls throughout the city. I can leave my high rise condo in center city and be in a setting reminiscent to the poconos within 5 minutes.

The one major thing Philly has going for it versus Pittsburgh is its proximity to NYC.

No offense personally but this is such a tired argument, and shows the ignorant bias against Philly. Anything you can find in Manhattan we have right here in center city albeit on a smaller scale.

Besides that the suburban counties (some of the wealthiest in the nation) act as a buffer to NYC. There is virtually no desire for a metro Philadlephian to want to go to NYC. If you think the 6 million people living in the Philly area say "Oh boy lets go to Manhattan this weekend" then you are sadly mistaken. Anyone looking for culture, nightlife goes to Center City or one of the great towns in the suburbs like West Chester,Media,Doylestown,King of Prussia,New Hope, Jenkintown, Moorestown,Cherry Hill, Wilmington etc.. Manhattan isn't on the radar as far this area is concerned..

[Drover]

For one, Pittsburgh has its fair share of "high society." Huge fortunes were made there and a lot of that money is still parked there. This is particularly evident in the large-scale support for the performing arts, which is far more vibrant than could be expected of a smallish, struggling metro area. PIttsburgh also has its fair share of stable, blue-collar neighborhoods. In fact that describes a good portion of the city. And yes, Pittsburgh has posh suburbs too, good enough for Theresa Heinz Kerry to call her home base.

And no offense personally, but as a Chicagoan I found Philly to be damn near provincial. I don't really care if 6 million or Philadelphians or zero Philadelphians head to Manhattan on any given weekend. I was speaking of my preference, not the preference of anyone in Philly. There's more to NYC than Manhattan. I'm not just interested in what Manhattan has to offer, I'm interested in the whole city experience. In that regard, very few places compare to NYC. Even Chicago is only a rough approximation and Philly barely begins to compare to Chicago.

I realize many people have fierce loyalties to their home cities, and I especially detect this in Philly folks. So it's hard to say this without stepping on people's toes.... but I've been to Philly a couple of times, and I have to say, I was not terribly impressed. For one thing, I have never seen a more litter-strewn city in my life. Litter may seem like a trivial detail to some, but what it signals to me is a lack of basic civic pride. I saw a lot of unrealized potential there (and the same is certainly true of Pittsburgh) and it certainly wasn't all "hell with the lid off." But for me the final nail in the coffin in the "Philly v. Pittsburgh" debate is the cost of living. If they were equal, I'd give a lot more consideration to Philly. As it is, Pittsburgh is my clear choice.

[ontheroad]

The last time I was in Philadelphia was the first time I thought, "this is just like Pittsburgh" in so many ways that I was actually surprised. I wouldn't want to chose one over the other. I like both and recognize some of their individual strengths and weaknesses.

[rainrock]

Originally Posted by Drover

I was speaking of my preference, not the preference of anyone in Philly.

Actually what you said was " The one major thing that Philly has going for it versus Pittsburgh is its proximity to NYC."

Logic denotes that your statement is saying Philadelphia has absolutely nothing going on other than its close to NYC which is absolutely a ridiculous statement. There's currently $7 or $8 Billion dollars worth of projects going on in center city and university city not not mention the previous 250 years of architecture which was a by-product of Philadlephia being the first or second wealthiest city in the usa in the first half of this countrys existence.

The vast architectural history alone makes Philadlephia a very special place. Is it one of the best cities in the world? Not on your life. Should it be? Was it set up to be? Absolutely. Theres a lot of blame to go around for the poor condition of certain sections of Philadlephia. Some of the blame is local some governmental. That being said I still take umbrage with your statement that the major thing that Philadlephia has going for it is its close to NYC. You don't know Philadlephia very well if you are making statements like that. I also must mention you won't find a speck of trash in center city or the nicer neighborhoods. The trash is found in the section 8 hoods which I readily admit are too numerous in this city.

1/3 of philly is world class. 1/3 is solid middle class. 1/3 is in trouble. If you add the world class and middle class areas you are coming up with 2/3 of a city of 1. 5 m people. That stat alone regardless of cost of living puts it ahead of a city of 320,000 people.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by rainrock

Actually what you said was " The one major thing that Philly has going for it versus Pittsburgh is its proximity to NYC."

Logic denotes that your statement is saying Philadelphia has absolutely nothing going on other than its close to NYC which is absolutely a ridiculous statement. There's currently $7 or $8 Billion dollars worth of projects going on in center city and university city not not mention the previous 250 years of architecture which was a by-product of Philadlephia being the first or second wealthiest city in the usa in the first half of this countrys existence.

The vast architectural history alone makes Philadlephia a very special place. Is it one of the best cities in the world? Not on your life. Should it be? Was it set up to be? Absolutely. Theres a lot of blame to go around for the poor condition of certain sections of Philadlephia. Some of the blame is local some governmental. That being said I still take umbrage with your statement that the major thing that Philadlephia has going for it is its close to NYC. You don't know Philadlephia very well if you are making statements like that. I also must mention you won't find a speck of trash in center city or the nicer neighborhoods. The trash is found in the section 8 hoods which I readily admit are too numerous in this city.

1/3 of philly is world class. 1/3 is solid middle class. 1/3 is in trouble. If you add the world class and middle class areas you are coming up with 2/3 of a city of 1. 5 m people. That stat alone regardless of cost of living puts it ahead of a city of 320,000 people.

For starters, I'm not sure whose rules of logic you're applying, but it's nothing I'm familiar with. Second, when I went to Philly, it wasn't to visit the Section 8 areas. It was to see the historic district and Center City. That's where I saw all the litter. I did putz around the university area too and there was a lot less litter there.

To each their own. As I intoned before, it's the cost of living that, in my opinion, makes Pittsburgh worthwhile and Philly not worthwhile. If Philly had Pitt's cost of living, I'd probably prefer Philly. If Pitt had Philly's cost of living, I'd really prefer neither.

[bboy36win]

Originally Posted by chinenjim

In my opinion the best city in PA is neither Pittsburgh nor Philly. It's Harrisburg. Beautiful suburbs, decently clean city, surrounded by mountains and wilderness etc.

As a native and long-time resident of the Harrisburg area, I can attest that this is true; however, you forgot about them there good ol' boys, drivin' their gun-racked pickup trucks to go huntin' durin' gobbler season! Yee haw. Not everyone is like this, of course, but there are more than a few, and I suppose to an extent I am one of them. But my Chevy does NOT have a gun rack!

As for Philly, I love its history (and its hockey team ), but I never cared much for the sprawl. And the high cost of living is wack.

Pittsburgh represents, to me, a nice blend. But then again, it all depends on what you're looking for in a city, doesn't it?

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by Drover

For one, Pittsburgh has its fair share of "high society."
And no offense personally, but as a Chicagoan I found Philly to be damn near provincial. I realize many people have fierce loyalties to their home cities, and I especially detect this in Philly folks. So it's hard to say this without stepping on people's toes.... but I've been to Philly a couple of times, and I have to say, I was not terribly impressed. e.

"Besides that the suburban counties (some of the wealthiest in the nation) act as a buffer to NYC."

How interesting, Drover, that you can see this in other people but not yourself.
You get your hackles up over the suggestion that Philly has more money than Pittsburgh (which it does). I believe the above statement about Philly's suburbs is true.
The same can absolutely NOT be said about Pittsburgh. I could probably afford Fox Chapel, where Teresa Heinz Kerry has her "farm" on a nurse's and electronics engineer's income. (Though I doubt I could afford her spread.)
And Philadelphia, provincial, compared to Pittsburgh? I rolled on the floor laughing at that one and just now picked myself up! I have read through a lot of these posts and Pittsburgh's provinciality, which I was challenged on, comes up again and again, though not all use that exact word. Some people say things like "people tend to live and die in the same zip code and never go much farther", etc, etc. BTW, have lived in the Philly syburbs (Wilmiington, DE).
Pittsburgh probably has the corner on the provinciality market, though Chicago is close. We were touring the Sears Tower recently and had to watch this lame movie about it and Chicago. When it ended I said I almost expected them to say "and Christ came down from heaven and walked acorss Lake Michigan". I lived in Champaign, IL where most of the student population is from Chicago. They most all seemed to think Chicago was the center of the universe. My daughter goes to college in Valparaiso, IN, where most of the students are from Chicago. She told me I was crazy for saying that, then agreed after being there about a week.
That said, I like Pittsburgh better than either Chicago or Philadelphia. When I was in college at Pitt, I thought I would scream if I heard about old money vs new money one more time. Isn't it the American dream to better oneself? I don't know that Philly is more littered than Pittsburgh; I think that might be looking at it through a stranger's eyes instead of a resident's. (You have lived in Pittsburgh and probably just got used to the litter there.)