PGH pedestrian friendly? and real story on crime (Pittsburgh, Penn Hills: high crime, neighborhood)

[Drover]

Originally Posted by PPG

Thats what I was disagreeing with. I'm saying every "hood" in USA is basicly the same. IMO.

And that's where we'll continue to disagree. I promise you that a hood with 20 high-rises all right next to each other, full of the poorest people in America, is not the same as Homewood. I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that most people would probably rather live in Homewood than here. Before they got torn down two years ago, it was not uncommon at the Robert Taylor Homes for there to be 30 murders per year on one single block. That's how bad the 'hood got in many parts of Chicago -- we've actually taken to bulldozing entire neighborhoods, sometimes several square miles at a time, and starting again from scratch. The last grand experiment failed; we'll see how the next one works out. It can't be any worse than taking the poorest of the poor, isolating them from the rest of society, and stacking them in vertical warehouses.

For me the biggest difference in the perception of safety in the bad parts of Pittsburgh versus the bad parts of Chicago is that the Pittsburgh patches are much smaller and you're never too far from a safe area if you start to get a hinky feeling. Around here, the 'hood can stretch for miles and miles and miles, and when you're in the middle of it, there's no quick retreat to a "safe" area.

[PPG]

Originally Posted by Drover

And that's where we'll continue to disagree. I promise you that a hood with 20 high-rises all right next to each other, full of the poorest people in America, is not the same as Homewood. I'm gonna go out on a limb and suggest that most people would probably rather live in Homewood than here. Before they got torn down two years ago, it was not uncommon at the Robert Taylor Homes for there to be 30 murders per year on one single block. That's how bad the 'hood got in many parts of Chicago -- we've actually taken to bulldozing entire neighborhoods, sometimes several square miles at a time, and starting again from scratch. The last grand experiment failed; we'll see how the next one works out. It can't be any worse than taking the poorest of the poor, isolating them from the rest of society, and stacking them in vertical warehouses.

For me the biggest difference in the perception of safety in the bad parts of Pittsburgh versus the bad parts of Chicago is that the Pittsburgh patches are much smaller and you're never too far from a safe area if you start to get a hinky feeling. Around here, the 'hood can stretch for miles and miles and miles, and when you're in the middle of it, there's no quick retreat to a "safe" area.

You are right but you are talking yesteryear I'm talking about now. Also comparing Chicago to a city like Pittsburgh is unfair, but as far as stats you have to take into account that Pittsburgh only has a 27% minority (black) population. 20 murders per 100,000 is too high for such a city. Thats on par with cities with 50% minority populations. Can you name another predominatly white city with as high a homicide rate?

[zip95]

Originally Posted by PPG

Thats what I was disagreeing with. I'm saying every "hood" in USA is basicly the same. IMO.

No offense PPG, but that statement basically explains all of your posts here. Of course that's not true. It is a demonstratable fact (not an opinion) that every hood is not the same.

To think that any area that's predominantly minority must be just like any other area that's predominantly minority is pretty far fetched. Is Fox Chapel (a predominantly white area) the same as Brentwood (another predominantly white area)?...Of course not. The primary differences between Fox Chapel and Brentwood are education, wealth, socialization, culture, etc. Is it your position that education, wealth, socialization, culture, etc all have no effect in the "hood".

As far as crime in Pittsburgh, while things aren't perfect, you can to A LOT worse.

[PPG]

Originally Posted by zip95

No offense PPG, but that statement basically explains all of your posts here. Of course that's not true. It is a demonstratable fact (not an opinion) that every hood is not the same.

To think that any area that's predominantly minority must be just like any other area that's predominantly minority is pretty far fetched. Is Fox Chapel (a predominantly white area) the same as Brentwood (another predominantly white area)?...Of course not. The primary differences between Fox Chapel and Brentwood are education, wealth, socialization, culture, etc. Is it your position that education, wealth, socialization, culture, etc all have no effect in the "hood".

As far as crime in Pittsburgh, while things aren't perfect, you can to A LOT worse.

First of all.......WHAT?????

As a black man all I am saying is that if you live in the projects you live in the projects. Of course some are worse than others but jeez......we are talking about the projects!
I am a black man from the projects. Pittsburgh projects. I've been to projects all over the east coast. I wouldn't be afraid to walk through any projects from New orleans to Chicago to Compton. It's all the same to me. And I am not saying that I want to live in projects.

[PPG]

Originally Posted by zip95

No offense PPG, but that statement basically explains all of your posts here. Of course that's not true. It is a demonstratable fact (not an opinion) that every hood is not the same.

To think that any area that's predominantly minority must be just like any other area that's predominantly minority is pretty far fetched. Is Fox Chapel (a predominantly white area) the same as Brentwood (another predominantly white area)?...Of course not. The primary differences between Fox Chapel and Brentwood are education, wealth, socialization, culture, etc. Is it your position that education, wealth, socialization, culture, etc all have no effect in the "hood".

As far as crime in Pittsburgh, while things aren't perfect, you can to A LOT worse.

The top ten murder capitals are cities that are predominatly minority. How is that far fetched?

[zip95]

Yikes PPG! Not sure how to respond? I think you might be more exteme than Newt Gingrich.

All I can say is that I'm sorry for your situation. I guess it's pretty clear that your own personal life experiences have been on the 'tramatic' side. But the truth of the matter is that large numbers of people have studied these things extensively. The overwhelming concensus is that economics, and culture are the best indicators of crime and other societal ills. This isn't just my opinion here.

You show me extreme poverty and I'll show you extreme crime. You show me improving economic conditions and I'll show you improving crime rates.

[zip95]

This is a little of topic, but it illustrates how complicated issues like these take more than just a "I've-visited-many-cities" analysis.

There is a popular economist who, using fancy statistical analysis techniques, was able to make a pretty convincing argument that the 1960's supreme court decision to legalize abortion was responsible for the nationwide crime drop that occured in the late 1990's....

How did we get this far off topic?....I just wanted to say that Pittsburgh is relatively safe.

[Katiana]

From PPG:

As a black man all I am saying is that if you live in the projects you live in the projects. Of course some are worse than others but jeez......we are talking about the projects!

I am neither black nor male, but I understand what PPG is saying. I have been a visiting nurse in projects in several (best unnamed) cities. They may all look different, but the lifestyle in all is very similar. Did I get it right, PPG?

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by zip95

To think that any area that's predominantly minority must be just like any other area that's predominantly minority is pretty far fetched.

Pimps has a good point about the racial distribution of population in Pittsburgh and Chicago. A greater percentage of violent crime is committed by minorities (and I admire Pimps for acknowledging that because many would claim it's a racist statement.) So an area with a higher minority population should have a higher violent crime rate. That's not the case when comparing violent crime statistics for Pittsburgh and Chicago.

Originally Posted by zip95

Is Fox Chapel (a predominantly white area) the same as Brentwood (another predominantly white area)?...Of course not. The primary differences between Fox Chapel and Brentwood are education, wealth, socialization, culture, etc. Is it your position that education, wealth, socialization, culture, etc all have no effect in the "hood".

Race is the core of the education and wealth differences, zip.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by zip95

You show me extreme poverty and I'll show you extreme crime.

But poverty is predominantly the burden of the minorities, zip.

Originally Posted by zip95

You show me improving economic conditions and I'll show you improving crime rates.

You have a good point too. Chicago's economy is better than Pittsburgh's economy. That could explain the violent crime comparison between the two cities. But Pimps is still right about race being at the core because minorities are predominantly the most severely impacted by the economy.