PGH pedestrian friendly? and real story on crime (Pittsburgh, Lebanon: spring break, real estate)

[MrTouch]

Hi,

I am strongly considering a move from San Antonio, Texas to Pittsburgh and hope you can help me sort out a few things.

I visited a pedestrian oriented website and it listed Pittsburgh as one of the larger cities with the highest percentage of the population that uses public transportation and/or walks to work. I like the idea of living in town (not suburbs) and if I can enjoy the kind of noncar independnece I enjoyed when I lived in Seattle previously, without the Seattle price tag, that would be pretty cool to me.

On the crime rate, I read one place that Pgh crime is half the national average, then I read somewhere else that it is almost double the national average. I'm not too big on stats, but all I'm trying to figure out is in the decent areas in town, what's the scene? If I go to a show or dinner, will I feel more the comfort level of DC or St. Louis, or a smaller, quieter place?

I hope you can give me a hand with this one.

I don't mind a gray place. As I mentioned, I lived in Seattle and Tacoma for 7 years.

I'll be posting another one about economy and self-employment shortly so your opinions on that too would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rod

[Katiana]

I grew up in the Pittsburgh area. I would urge you to consider this move VERY carefully. The Pittsburgh econcomy collapsed around 1980 due to the crash of the steel industry. Things are better now than they were in the early 1980s, but not by much. The main "industries" there seem to be education and health care. The area has been losing population for decades; not just the city, the entire several county metro area.

Yes, it's very pretty there. It's supposedly rainier than Seattle, and my daughter, who has been to both, thinks they look alike with lots of hills and trees. Fall is incredibly beautiful. Unlike Seattle, Pittsburgh gets snow virtually every winter. This winter has been particularly harsh, and some school districts are shortening spring break to make up for snow days. Also unlike Seattle, it gets hot and humid in the summer. Don't let anyone tell you you can live comfortably w/o air-conditioning there. My parents didn't have it; I remember many a sticky night. Some summers are not as bad as others.

It is not nearly as cosmopolitan as most other cities. Most people have lived there all their lives and many have not traveled very far afield. The natives think the U of Pittsburgh is ranked next to Harvard. The Catholic church has a big influence there.

I haven't lived there for so long that I am unfamiliar with the public transportation systems. There is some sort of light-rail called the T on the south end of the metro area. When I was in college I didn't have a car and could get most anywhere I needed to go on the bus. On the other hand, I was living in a dorm and not buying groceries or running a home. When I had an apartment, I had a car.

You need to look at some of the other posts on this forum to get a feel for the place. Housing is cheap, but what you'd really want to live in won't be as cheap as you think. And I am talking about city living, not the burbs. Everyone keeps talking about how Pittsburgh will "be back", but they have been talking that way for 25 yrs, and the actual progress has been slim.

Good luck!

[subdivisions]

Originally Posted by MrTouch

Hi,

I am strongly considering a move from San Antonio, Texas to Pittsburgh and hope you can help me sort out a few things.

I visited a pedestrian oriented website and it listed Pittsburgh as one of the larger cities with the highest percentage of the population that uses public transportation and/or walks to work. I like the idea of living in town (not suburbs) and if I can enjoy the kind of noncar independnece I enjoyed when I lived in Seattle previously, without the Seattle price tag, that would be pretty cool to me.

On the crime rate, I read one place that Pgh crime is half the national average, then I read somewhere else that it is almost double the national average. I'm not too big on stats, but all I'm trying to figure out is in the decent areas in town, what's the scene? If I go to a show or dinner, will I feel more the comfort level of DC or St. Louis, or a smaller, quieter place?

I hope you can give me a hand with this one.

I don't mind a gray place. As I mentioned, I lived in Seattle and Tacoma for 7 years.

I'll be posting another one about economy and self-employment shortly so your opinions on that too would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Rod

I moved here from the Southwest a few years ago and I really like it. It is a very pedestrian-friendly city, and public transportation is good. My husband and I owned two cars when we got here (a necessity where we came from) and sold one after a year because it was pointless to own it. If he didn't have to work out in the icky suburbs, we could get by just fine with no car at all.

Crime overall is less than the average of other cities its size. You need to pick your neighborhoods carefully, though, just like with other big cities. There are many threads here about neighborhoods and crime rates - just do a search.

The weather won't be what you're accustomed to, but the overall level of culture will probably be higher.

Also, there are some negative people on these boards with regard to every city (Pittsburgh included) - don't let them scare you off. I know quite a few people who moved here from somewhere else and and love it. Like every city, how you will feel about Pittsburgh will probably depend on what you're personally looking for. Not everybody here is embittered and angry, despite what you might read in the threads.

Best of luck with your decision.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

I grew up in the Pittsburgh area. I would urge you to consider this move VERY carefully. The Pittsburgh econcomy collapsed around 1980 due to the crash of the steel industry. Things are better now than they were in the early 1980s, but not by much. The main "industries" there seem to be education and health care. The area has been losing population for decades; not just the city, the entire several county metro area.

When did you leave, Nurse? The economy was BOOMING here in the 90s right up until the election of Bush! Mind you, I did vote for him so I'm not making a political statement. The fact of the matter was that alll major corporations around the country started to "prepare" for a recession (which in my opinion caused the recession but that's another discussion for another thread on another site.) The Iraq war didn't help any because of the increase in gasoline prices pushing the prices of groceries and everything through the roof.

All in all, Pittsburgh doesn't have it any worse than the rest of the country overall. Sure, there will always be the booming economy somewhere else-----consider New Zealand, it's BOOMING there-----but we're not suffering in Pittsburgh by any stretch of the imagination.

I'm sorry your attitude towards Pittsburgh is so negative. I assure you that it's inaccurate. The economy is nothing like when the steel industry crashed. Pittsburgh was in a depression back then while the rest of the country was simply in a recession.

[stevo6]

Originally Posted by MrTouch

If I go to a show or dinner, will I feel more the comfort level of DC or St. Louis, or a smaller, quieter place?

You should be very comfortable in PGH if those cities are your standard! We are much smaller, quieter, and have far less crime than DC, and similar in size but more vibrant, and still safer than St. Louis (despite our less vibrant baseball team!) Pittsburgh's east end is not unlike Georgetown on a much smaller scale with boutiques and restaraunts, Universities, and some very good housing stock. People I know from Portland Or. have remarked on the similarities between Pittsburgh and that city.
Bus service from the east is very good. If you are more attracted to the suburbs, there is light rail to the south hills including Mt.Lebanon which is a nice historic town with an excellent school system. Statistically, compared to other cities of our size, we have less crime. There are areas of-course, as in any city, that are not safe.
I saw your post about the business climate. Pittsburgh is a slow growth town. Our booms and busts are much more modest than in most cities- Seattle being one of the more volatile places by comparison. Do look into the tax situation because it is our achilles heel. Remember that Pittsburgh was a city of 800,000 when steel was king, and is now less than half of that. This means that there is a lot of housing stock (cheap real estate) but also a lot of infrastructure (high taxes) compared to most cities of this size.

[MrTouch]

Thanks all for the feedback.

As i mentioned, I'm just gathering information right now but I'm cautiously interested at this point.

It's hard for a person used to high home prices elsewhere not to be blinded by the perception of ultra-affordable homes with some age and character located in pedestrian friendly neighborhoods.

That simply isn't the case in most places.

In San Antonio, we share the low price point, but what you get for that $ may not impress much. Or you just can't get there on public transportation.

Again, thanks and any other feedback would be great.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by stevo6

Remember that Pittsburgh was a city of 800,000 when steel was king, and is now less than half of that.

The greater metropolitian area (Allegheny County and surrounding counties) has a MUCH larger population than it did during the high steel days. People just moved farther from the city for various reasons, taxes being one of them. Of course, I know you're aware of that. I just wanted to clarify so it didn't appear to be a dying town by population standards. Sure some young people leave here after graduating from college, but many people come back here to raise their families too.

Originally Posted by stevo6

Our booms and busts are much more modest than in most cities...

Absolutely! What I referred to as a boom probably wouldn't register in another city. But there were plenty of jobs and job seekers could pretty much name their price. I know I did! And when we go into a recession, it's not that bad. The cost of living is so good here that it's really easy to survive a recession in Pittsburgh. I agree with you completely about our booms and busts being modest. I like it that way. I'd much rather live in a STABLE city than one that can go either way at a moment's notice.

[Katiana]

To answer Hopes question briefly, I left in 1971 to move to Illinois. I lived there for seven of the next nine years, till 1980. I spent the other two years moving around, spent some time in PA. I left for the last time in 1980 to move to Denver.

I have had family in the area continously. I have been back at least every two years. In the mid 90s, I spent a lot of time there dealing with aging parents. In 1997, my brother moved back from Orlando, FL for personal reasons. Despite having a BA from Penn State and 24 yrs experience in human resources, it took him a year to find a job, and then it only paid $11/hr. He interviewed for many jobs for which he was overqualified, something that is uncommon elsewhere, because the employer is afraid the employee will find a job for which he/she is fully qualified and leave. My brother said many of the jobs he interviewed for didn't pay beans.

Regarding population, I have figures from the census bureau for the Pittsburgh Metropolitan Statistical Area (Pittsburgh and suburbs)

1960: the hey-day of the steel industry 2,406,301
1970: Steel industry slowing but still OK 2,347,611
1980: Right around the crash 2,218,870
1990: About ten years after the crash 2,394, 811
2000: Most recent year available 2,358,000

The metro area decreased in size in all but one of those decades, including the last decade. The numbers from Beaver County are probably even worse, percentage wise. Beaver Falls, where I grew up, had a population of about 15000 when I was in high school. Now its population is 9900. It looks shabby and the library is in such bad condition Andrew Carnegie would roll over in his grave if he saw it. There is simply no money for repairs. The last new house in Beaver Falls was built years ago (per city-data).

Pittsburgh city is now smaller than Omaha, Nebraska!

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

To answer Hopes question briefly, I left in 1971 to move to Illinois. I lived there for seven of the next nine years, till 1980. I spent the other two years moving around, spent some time in PA. I left for the last time in 1980 to move to Denver.

Then you don't have FIRST HAND experience living in Pittsburgh after recovering from the collapse of the Steel industry.

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

I have had family in the area continously. I have been back at least every two years. In the mid 90s, I spent a lot of time there dealing with aging parents. In 1997, my brother moved back from Orlando, FL for personal reasons. Despite having a BA from Penn State and 24 yrs experience in human resources, it took him a year to find a job, and then it only paid $11/hr. He interviewed for many jobs for which he was overqualified, something that is uncommon elsewhere, because the employer is afraid the employee will find a job for which he/she is fully qualified and leave. My brother said many of the jobs he interviewed for didn't pay beans.

Funny, everyone I know, including myself, could name their salary in the 90's here in Pittsburgh

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

Regarding population, I have figures from the census bureau for the Pittsburgh Metropolitan Statistical Area (Pittsburgh and suburbs)

I specified "Allegheny County and surrounding COUNTIES" as the greater metropolitan area of Pittsburgh. You merely provided Pittsburgh and suburbs. Surrounding counties are relevant because many people are moving out of Allegheny County for lower property taxes, but they still count towards the greater metropolitan area population because the metropolitan area is spreading outwards.

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

1960: the hey-day of the steel industry 2,406,301
1970: Steel industry slowing but still OK 2,347,611
1980: Right around the crash 2,218,870
1990: About ten years after the crash 2,394, 811
2000: Most recent year available 2,358,000

Please provide the source of your data along with detailing exactly what the data represents (list of suburbs included, are the same suburbs covered in each year represented, etc.)

Regardless of your data not including the surrounding counties, your statistics substantiate my claim that the population hasn't been cut in half like Stevo6 inaccurately represented. Thanks for that!

[bboy36win]

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

It is not nearly as cosmopolitan as most other cities.

I think you'll find the theaters, museums, restaraunts, and countless other attractions to be beyond that offered in cities of comparable size (~300,000). See the "Things to do in Pittsburgh" thread for all that the city offers.

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

Most people have lived there all their lives and many have not traveled very far afield.

This may apply to some, but to say "most" is a rather harsh generalization.

Originally Posted by pittnurse70

The natives think the U of Pittsburgh is ranked next to Harvard.

And this is nonsense.

Good luck to you!