Pittsburgh Housing Program Thread (Washington, Manchester: middle-class, section 8, top neighborhood)

[By~Tor]

I will paste a conversation I'm having with someone on here about a housing program idea... maybe some off you would have experience in the local implementation of it or the possibilities o something similar being done here... and o course, any corrections needed are welcomed, in the interest of accuracy:

Originally Posted by Anonymous but Gracious Writer

Mr. Tor,


I was thinking about all of Pittsburghs great irreplacable old homes sitting empty and in decay. I'm sure many have gone back to the city for taxes. If you have a second please tell me why this wouldn't save a few. The city offers to give the houses free in exchange for renovation. At some peroid of time, say 5 years title is given if the work is done.
Money is spent.Taxes are paid. People move TO Pittsburgh. I read somewhere that the ciy, in an atempt to do some of those things I mentioned, offered a tax break on new construction.
Those old houses are history and can't be replaced.
I picked you because I respect your opinion. I also admire your fondness of rabbits, as your photo shows.
Thanks,
(Name Withheld for Privacy)

Well (Name Withheld for Privacy), I would IMAGINE, that the program you refer to is a combination of local, state and/or federal (HUD???) incentives to refurbish older housing stock.... But unfortunately, these houses are most oten located in areas that are considered "severely blighted" and the people who tend to move TO places like Pittsburgh aren't going to be the ones who will invest 5 years in a crime-ridden area, just to get a house they may or may not decide to live in or sell, once that time period's complete.

Those who move here usually move either because of a job opportunity, or or a cost of living decrease from wherever they're currently at....

The program you mention would BEST be marketed to those who already have roots in this area, and it would be a bona-fide remedy to some folks who cannot escape the rent cycle on their own... but again, we now run into the financial burden of such an undertaking.... those who are here and who might benefit from this program usually have no money or credit to get loans to actually restore that housing.....

So, the city will usually decide to offer the program as a "feel-good" measure, but no one partakes in it, rendering it self-defeating... and the housing sits and decays further, until what happens is similar to what happened in Chicago... the near-Loop housing deterioriated enough eventually, to entice the Catholic Church to buy up huge swaths of properies, and then just let it decay until it could be legally condemned, raized, and new construction built on the same property. The Church could then sell the units at market value, thereby increasing the tax base in that area, at least to some degree....

Yes, this moves middle-class people into what was lower-class areas, but it does nothing to help thos who have lived there already to achieve home-ownership.... what NEEDS to happen, is the Government revisit the program and make it to where ANYONE can partake in it, regardless o income restrictions. This would facilitate a rush for these older properties, a renewal of home restoration interest, and an influx of dollars for contractors who provide jobs to people....

It's sooooo easy, and it would serve so many purposes, concurrently..... but alas, it makes too much sense, and i the city fatcats can't get rich off of it, why would they do it????

[robrobrob]

The city has has a program where houses are sold very cheaply. In some cases they require an owner occupant but in other cases an investor can buy them. You can look on the city website to find details about this program.

Another problem is that commutes aren't that bad in Pittsburgh so people really don't have an incentive to gentrify some of the more run down areas.

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by By~Tor

I will paste a conversation I'm having with someone on here about a housing program idea... maybe some off you would have experience in the local implementation of it or the possibilities o something similar being done here... and o course, any corrections needed are welcomed, in the interest of accuracy:






Well (Name Withheld for Privacy), I would IMAGINE, that the program you refer to is a combination of local, state and/or federal (HUD???) incentives to refurbish older housing stock.... But unfortunately, these houses are most oten located in areas that are considered "severely blighted" and the people who tend to move TO places like Pittsburgh aren't going to be the ones who will invest 5 years in a crime-ridden area, just to get a house they may or may not decide to live in or sell, once that time period's complete.

Those who move here usually move either because of a job opportunity, or or a cost of living decrease from wherever they're currently at....

The program you mention would BEST be marketed to those who already have roots in this area, and it would be a bona-fide remedy to some folks who cannot escape the rent cycle on their own... but again, we now run into the financial burden of such an undertaking.... those who are here and who might benefit from this program usually have no money or credit to get loans to actually restore that housing.....

So, the city will usually decide to offer the program as a "feel-good" measure, but no one partakes in it, rendering it self-defeating... and the housing sits and decays further, until what happens is similar to what happened in Chicago... the near-Loop housing deterioriated enough eventually, to entice the Catholic Church to buy up huge swaths of properies, and then just let it decay until it could be legally condemned, raized, and new construction built on the same property. The Church could then sell the units at market value, thereby increasing the tax base in that area, at least to some degree....

Yes, this moves middle-class people into what was lower-class areas, but it does nothing to help thos who have lived there already to achieve home-ownership.... what NEEDS to happen, is the Government revisit the program and make it to where ANYONE can partake in it, regardless o income restrictions. This would facilitate a rush for these older properties, a renewal of home restoration interest, and an influx of dollars for contractors who provide jobs to people....

It's sooooo easy, and it would serve so many purposes, concurrently..... but alas, it makes too much sense, and i the city fatcats can't get rich off of it, why would they do it????

They did this years ago with the Mexican War Streets, and I believe they were trying to do it in Manchester. And that's where the program faltered.

But it's expensive, and requires oversight. If memory serves, they can't give a house away, but they sold it for a dollar. They also held the reconstruction loan, to make sure the work was being done properly. (there were restrictions -- you couldn't buy one of those houses and keep the outside and totally "Dwell" it out on the inside. The remodel had to be done in the period of the home)

I don't think it was a Pittsburgh program -- I think it was an Allegheny County program.

[By~Tor]

Originally Posted by Tallysmom

They did this years ago with the Mexican War Streets, and I believe they were trying to do it in Manchester. And that's where the program faltered.

"Why??"

But it's expensive, and requires oversight. If memory serves, they can't give a house away, but they sold it for a dollar. They also held the reconstruction loan, to make sure the work was being done properly. (there were restrictions -- you couldn't buy one of those houses and keep the outside and totally "Dwell" it out on the inside. The remodel had to be done in the period of the home)

I'd think that one agency could oversee it simply by looking at the stated incomes of those who apply for the program, and then follow up the same way Children & Family Services' agents are supposed to do.... make unscheduled visitations on a quarterly basis to ensure people are actually living there....

I don't think it was a Pittsburgh program -- I think it was an Allegheny County program.

Actually, I think it was a Federal program, through HUD......

[PeterRabbit]

I remember seeing large billboards on the North Side about buying a house for $1. Maybe it didn't work because you'd need a large, high-interest construction loan to rehab the properties. The North Side has always had a bad reputation which it deserves. There was as many murders there last year as there was in the Hill and Homewood.

An attorney I knew bought a Mexican Wart House there for $70,000. It was liveable, but very old fashoned in a bad way... worn carpets and old fixtures, needed painted. His queen-sized bed was propped against the dining room wall because you can't get large pieces of furniture up the stairs. When he had to sell it, it went for less than $30,000 which is probably all it was really worth. All the hype about what a great histrical district it was and how investing there would prove rewarding was bad advice. Some people find living in a neighborhood where you could get shot exciting, and trying to find a parking spot on the street challenging. Most, I think, would disagree.

[vtPGH]

Originally Posted by PeterRabbit

There was as many murders there [North Side] last year as there was in the Hill and Homewood.

Being a North Side resident this fact is sadly true, but the catch to this often used stat is that the population of the North Side (pop.48,000) is nearly 6x greater than Homewood (9,300), and 4x greater than the Hill District (11,800). So while each area had I think 12 or 13 murders in 2008, the actual rate per 100K was significantly lower on the North Side, (27/100k) than in Homewood (129/100K) or the Hill (101/100k). Mt. Washington, with 3 murders in 2008 and a pop. of 10,000, even had a higher murder rate at 30/100k. Given that the city logged 71 murders for a rate of 23/100k last year, the North Side was only slightly worst than average for the city as a whole. Now I agree that the Perry Hilltop neighborhood, with 5 murders in 2008 and a population of only 5,000 is pretty much as bad as the Hill and Homewood, but most North Side neighborhoods don't come anywhere close, considering 11 of the North Side's 18 neighborhoods had no homicides last year. My apologies for playing the fact check police...(off soap box)

[PeterRabbit]

I didn't know the North Side had that many people. Recent talk is about the under river tunnel that goes to nowhere or only the ballparks. If things were that bad all over there, they, the science center, etc., would be located elsewhere. But it has a bad rep that the city has failed to redd up.

When we hear about trouble from the media, it's North Side, not a specific neighborhood. I think suburbanites and even other city dwellers would rather avoid it than move there. We need a lot more than Mexican War Street houses to attract people to that section of the city as a living environment. Better law enforcement and schools could help.

[By~Tor]

Originally Posted by PeterRabbit

Better law enforcement and schools could help.

Better parenting and positive peer pressure would work even better.... We can't expect the schools and jails to lock the li'l bastages up and somehow produce viable members of society... it has to come from within the existing community to create "Change We Can Believe In".....

[vtPGH]

Originally Posted by PeterRabbit

When we hear about trouble from the media, it's North Side, not a specific neighborhood. I think suburbanites and even other city dwellers would rather avoid it than move there. We need a lot more than Mexican War Street houses to attract people to that section of the city as a living environment. Better law enforcement and schools could help.

The bad rep is very true, and at times frustrating for law abiding Northsiders. When everything that happens on this side of the river ends up on the news as going down on the 'North Side,' even good neighborhoods, like Summer Hill and Brighton Heights get a bad rap because of the not so good parts. If the news labeled everything that happened in the city east of Oakland as 'East End,' then the reputations of areas like Squirrell Hill and Regent Square would start being damaged by trouble in places like Homewood, Lincoln-Lemington and Garfield.

Back to the question on housing programs, pretty much everyone agrees the large scale housing projects built in 1960's have failed miserable. Overall, concentrating poverty breeds more poverty and snuffs out hope. The current section 8 model of integrating lower income families into mixed, and higher income neighborhoods is good on paper, and takes a page from the mixed income, ethnic neighborhoods that flourished prior to WWII. Sadly, its often executed poorly, due to socio-economic and cultural differences that get magnified but not addressed, and neighbors that just don't buy in, making the neighborhood increasingly contentious and polarized.

As long as corruption and shady figures can be kept away, I would love to see more non-profit and community organizations already committed to social service and equitable redevelopment invest in our city's run down properties and lots, and build or refurbish quality homes for lower income residents. They can screen residents better than a gov't. program, through selecting families they've already built a relationship with through other programs and services, and enforce guidelines that must be adhered to in order to live there, thus avoiding the my 'new neighbor is a drug dealer' scenario . These organizations could even set up programs that would gradually and responsibly (take note Adjustable rate mortagages...) shift the ownership of the property from the organization or development corp. into the familiy's possesion.

[juliegt]

I think that's a very good idea. Habitat for Humanity would be a great manager for that type of project. They screen potential owners whose names are put in a lottery for the rehabbed and/or new homes. The winners than must take classes on home ownership and put in a few hundred hours of sweat equity into building/rehabbing their homes. Licensed contractors & tradespeople provide skilled labor supervise the winners and other volunteers. They recently built about three blocks of townhomes about a mile from where I live in the Sf Bay Area. Previuosly there had been crime ridden apartment blocks there. Now it is a tidy, safe, owner-occupied (and built!) development.

It's a model that works and could be used in Pittsburgh. Does anyone know if HfH has done any projects in Pittsburgh?