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I can think of three reasons right off the top of my head
Points 1 and 3 are certainly true, but #2 is only partially true. The public transit system is mainly geared towards getting students to the universities and getting pepole into downtown. But if you want to take the bus between various communities you usually have to first take a bus downtown or oakland and then then catch a bus to where you really want to go, this can be really time consuming. Where as other cities don't suffer this problem.
I can think of another city that has a similar bus service: Providence, RI. You generally have to take a local bus into Downtown and switch. I always thought it a nuisance, but quickly learned the system didn't serve a sufficient number of residents to do otherwise. It was all about the car.
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Originally Posted by Snaily
Points 1 and 3 are certainly true, but #2 is only partially true. The public transit system is mainly geared towards getting students to the universities and getting pepole into downtown. But if you want to take the bus between various communities you usually have to first take a bus downtown or oakland and then then catch a bus to where you really want to go, this can be really time consuming. Where as other cities don't suffer this problem.
Snaily,
I'm one of those educated folks to whom you are referring, and am considering a move to Pittsburgh because my wife has an opportunity there. Everytime I try to justify the move to Pitt., I read about or hear about some negative (lack of growth, taxes, weather etc.) that keeps me thinking about not coming to Pittsburgh. I think if Pittsburgh wants growth and a dynamic labor force & jobs, they need to make it a little more attractive . . . sell it a little better by providing some incentives, reducing taxes etc. I know nothing can be done about the cloudy/rainy weather but the decision to move there is not an easy one.
Oh please. You posted an article that shows some data (not cited) from 2000 and 2001. Without seeing how the data was collected no real conclusion can be made of it, I bet that it didn't take into consideration students, for example. Writing articles for local consumption isn't shredding anything into pieces, they need to write articles based on reasoned statistical data with proper citations. Luckily it seems city officials know the realities, they need to attract latent to the city.
The problem with Pittsburgh is that it doesn't attract young and educated folks. It may be the case that the young yinzers are staying in the city. Although that is good, its not what is going to make the city better. Not only can the city not keep their own graduates in the city, but they aren't even close to attracting graduates from other states to come and start businesses and get jobs. Now contrast with the opposite extreme - The Berkeley/Stanford area in CA. Students that graduate there often stay and people go there just to start businesses.
Anyhow, my comment was written from this point of view, I went to graduate school in CMU. Out of the 30 or so people I went to school with only 2 are still in Pittsburgh. Me and someone else, I'm leaving in 2 months. They left for two reasons, 1.) There aren't many places to find good jobs in many key industries. 2.) They wanted to start a business, but found pittsburgh lacking (Note, I'm not considering the folks that went into academia as they largely go where they can find a job).
So, relativize my comment to young people who are educated and its completely true.
My experience has been entirely different. I am also a graduate student, I am staying here after I graduate, and I know at least 10 other young, educated couples who are also staying. I posted all of this in more detail on another thread.
In any case, anecdotal evidence is suspect (yes, both yours and mine). You can't make broad statements labeled "fact" about who's leaving and who's staying based on your own experience.
A more true indicator of population growth and shrinkage is statistical evidence. And someone (can't remember who right now) posted a very long, detailed link that indicated that Pittsburgh's declining population was basically due to a generation gap from the closing steel mills in the 1980s and old people dying off, NOT because of young people leaving the city. I'm sorry that doesn't match what you want to believe about Pittsburgh, but that's the way things go sometimes.
My experience has been entirely different. I am also a graduate student, I am staying here after I graduate, and I know at least 10 other young, educated couples who are also staying. I posted all of this in more detail on another thread.
In any case, anecdotal evidence is suspect (yes, both yours and mine). You can't make broad statements labeled "fact" about who's leaving and who's staying based on your own experience.
A more true indicator of population growth and shrinkage is statistical evidence. And someone (can't remember who right now) posted a very long, detailed link that indicated that Pittsburgh's declining population was basically due to a generation gap from the closing steel mills in the 1980s and old people dying off, NOT because of young people leaving the city. I'm sorry that doesn't match what you want to believe about Pittsburgh, but that's the way things go sometimes.
I can't be quoted on this because I can't find the research that was linked on this forum but it might be the very same one you are talking about subdivions. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it also highlight the fact that not only is Pittsburgh not losing it's youth as people believe but that we are actually above the national average of retaining our young professional graduates as well? The exidus of Pittsburgh youth is a thing of the past. Pittsburgh is still losing population but it is indeed because of the gap in generation. In fact, one might argue that Pittsburgh doesn't have enough middle-aged folk because the generation gap is between the strong young and elderly population (who are dying and causing the loss of population).
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't it also highlight the fact that not only is Pittsburgh not losing it's youth as people believe but that we are actually above the national average of retaining our young professional graduates as well?
I don't have time to dig up the thread to verify, but I believe Pittsburgh is above the national average at retaining current population overall, not just one subgroup.
Hanging out on citydata would be alot easier if some of the important old threads were stickied since some topics, like this one, are becoming extremely repetitive.
You can't make broad statements labeled "fact" about who's leaving and who's staying based on your own experience.
I'm not, I've looked at the data too. The youth population says fairly constant year to year. Yet there are many universities in the city. So either two things are happening 1.) The students are in general leaving the city when they graduate. 2.) Students are staying but they are offset by non-students.
Also, my comments about CMU aren't just based on my experience. Even their alumni data shows that only 19% stay in the city, many of that 19% are most likely from the area in the first place (Also, its undergrad + grad data). Pitt's alumni data will probably be better, but that is because more locals go to pitt.
The problem is other areas attract people from all over the world, but Pittsburgh doesn't except in the case of the medical industry. Maybe things will change, but if everyone in Pittsburgh deneies there is a problem they wont. Instead the city will keep getting its butt kicked by other regions.
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NOT because of young people leaving the city
When I made my comment I had students in my mind. And I think the data supports what I'm saying, that the students from out of the area leave the area when they are done.
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I think if Pittsburgh wants growth and a dynamic labor force & jobs, they need to make it a little more attractive . . .
They are trying, the problem is that the local government is pretty bad. For example instead of fixing the city they are spending millions to build a new arena for the penguins so that they'll stay in the city. So now all the sports teams here will have great arenas/stadiums while there are thousands of boarded up homes that aren't being cleaned up. This is also how they are fixing it, they make commercials like this and show them daily:
Also, my comments about CMU aren't just based on my experience. Even their alumni data shows that only 19% stay in the city, many of that 19% are most likely from the area in the first place (Also, its undergrad + grad data).
I think it makes completely sense that Pittsburgh only retains 19% of CMU's students. It's a world class university attracting people from all over the world. When you consider it globally, it's actually amazing that Pittsburgh retains 19% of them regardless of where they came from to begin with. That's 19% when there are millions of other places for the graduates to go.
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Originally Posted by snaily
The problem is other areas attract people from all over the world, but Pittsburgh doesn't except in the case of the medical industry.
It's not just the medical industry. The universities attract people from all over the world. You are literal proof of that too. But outside of the medical industry and universities there are plenty of foreigners living in Pittsburgh. I've spent many years in Pittsburgh corporate world so I know this to be fact.
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Originally Posted by snaily
Maybe things will change, but if everyone in Pittsburgh deneies there is a problem they wont. Instead the city will keep getting its butt kicked by other regions.
Did it ever occur to you that Pittsburghers don't want to the city to become a rat race? We like our standard of living. All that matters is that we have a stable economy. And the economy in Pittsburgh is stable. We're certainly not going to experience any significant losses like the crash of the steel industry in Pittsburgh and the crash of high tech in San Francisco. The Silicon Valley is proof of how unstable an economic bubble can be to a region. Pittsburgh's strength is that it isn't dominated by any one industry, with the exception of medicine but with the increase in the elderly population that's not going to be a concern for a very long time. And even when the elderly populations weren't so large, Pittsburgh still managed to be in the forefont of medicine.
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Originally Posted by snaily
When I made my comment I had students in my mind. And I think the data supports what I'm saying, that the students from out of the area leave the area when they are done.
That's okay. We have plenty of people coming to the area. Pittsburgh doesn't need huge growth because that creates an unstable market and a higher cost of living. And Pittsburgh continually retains it's current population better than other cities in the country.
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Originally Posted by snaily
That said, there are certainly worse areas you can live than Pittsburgh.
Definitely! I'm sorry Pittsburgh didn't work out for you and your business, but many people come to Pittsburgh and achieve success.
Pittsburgh is no worse off than other metros with graduate retention etc. Could it be better? sure. Is it getting better? yes.
Does Pittsburgh have a long way to go? you bet. has it come along way? yes.
An incredible amount of jobs in a local economy are service jobs in relation to the professional and other "traditional" jobs in an economy - that is to say someone starts a company it has a 100 people, many more jobs will be created to service them in that given city. Growth creates growth. Part of the region's problem is that the slow growth constricts this. As the region's economy has diversified in the last 20 years, you will see it continue to pick up steam and it slowly but surely has.
tech centers are not created over night, but the seeds are there. Look at this:
These are the top metros in getting venture capital, the money that largely funds technology companies. If you click on the link to the report, you'll see that Pittsburgh climbed rapidly in the last 10 years. In fact % wise, it was the number one gainer in this time period. No region will catch up to Silicon Valley, but several cities here are players and Pittsburgh has leaped over several "hot" cities in a very short time period.
Ranking Metro Investment (in millions)
1 San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose, CA CMSA $ 9,159.4
2 Boston-Worc.-Lawrence, MA-NH-ME-CT CMSA $ 2,666.8
3 New York-No. NJ-Long Is., NY-NJ-CT-PA CMSA $ 1,962.8
4 Los Angeles-Riverside-Orange County, CA CMSA $ 1,564.9
5 San Diego, CA MSA $ 1,231.1
6 Washington-Baltimore, DC-MD-VA-WV CMSA $ 1,111.7
7 Seattle-Tacoma-Bremerton, WA CMSA $ 978.7
8 Denver-Boulder-Greeley, CO CMSA $ 616.5
9 Austin-San Marcos, TX MSA $ 604.5
10 Dallas-Fort Worth, TX CMSA $ 535.1
11 Philadelphia-Wilm.-Atl.City, PA-NJ-DE-MD, CMSA $ 503.2
12 Chicago-Gary-Kenosha, IL-IN-WI CMSA $ 386.4
13 Atlanta, GA MSA $ 356.1
14 Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, NC MSA $ 327.6
15 Minneapolis-St. Paul, MN-WI MSA $ 309.2 16 Pittsburgh, PA MSA $ 229.8
17 Phoenix-Mesa, AZ MSA $ 225.2
18 Houston-Galveston-Brazoria, TX CMSA $ 212.4
19 Portland-Salem, OR-WA CMSA $ 145.0
20 Charlotte-Gastonia-Rock Hill, NC-SC MSA $ 122.4
21 Salt Lake City-Ogden, UT MSA $ 121.3
22 Providence-Fall River-Warwick, RI-MA MSA $ 113.5
23 West Palm Beach-Boca Raton, FL MSA $ 75.3
24 Detroit-Ann Arbor-Flint, MI CMSA $ 68.2
25 Orlando, FL MSA $ 62.4
26 Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater, FL MSA $ 57.7
27 Kansas Cty, MO-KS MSA $ 56.0
28 Rochester, NY MSA $ 55.5
29 Nashville, TN MSA $ 45.8
30 Buffalo-Niagara Falls, NY MSA $ 38.8
31 Miami-Fort Lauderdale, FL CMSA $ 37.8
32 Sacramento-Yolo, CA CMSA $ 34.1
33 St. Louis-St., MO-IL MSA $ 31.2
34 Indianapolis, IN MSA $ 27.2
35 San Antonio, TX MSA $ 26.1
36 Greensboro—Winst.-Salem--High Point, NC MSA $ 19.7
37 Cleveland-Akron, OH CMSA $ 19.4
38 Hartford, CT MSA $ 18.6
39 Las Vegas, NV-AZ MSA $ 18.4
40 Columbus, OH MSA $ 18.3
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