Dying Mon River towns (Pittsburgh, Wilkinsburg: school districts, contractors, taxes)

[RedBall]

Originally Posted by Drover

... asks the fellow whose prior prior post hyperventilates about "silly" and "pointless" and "meaningless" discussion and "freaking perspective" and uses about 38 exclamation points.

Lol, relax bud. At least I think you get it now.

[MissShona]

Eh-hem. As someone who lives AND works in the Mon Valley (I live in Clairton, I work in California), I beg to differ with the opinions that "nothing goes on here" and that there is "nothing here worth saving". Before I landed my current job, I worked in Belle Vernon. Now this was coming off a return from Miami and I was hoping for a job going in the other direction (towards Pittsburgh). Sometimes an unanswered prayer is the best gift; because when it turned out that I would be losing that job (which ironically was because of the hard hit economy in Las Vegas, not SW PA!) and starting interviewing, I saw what a bear commuting around Pittsburgh can be. Traffic is not so bad; but the roads are (or lack or roads maybe?).

Anyway back to the Mon Valley, yes, I do feel pooling resources would be good. This is especially true when it comes to schools. However, it has a hard time flying with locals because each town has "their people" and they like automony. It defies logic -- but it just is what it is. Clairton and Dravosburg aren't going to just "come together" and neither will Charleroi and Donora. So you will have squandared opportunities there. But I would still put the quality of life here above what some of my friends are going through in suburbs in Detroit, Cleveland and even Miami. Homeowners here aren't fighting foreclosures here. People can feed their families. There are jobs around (I was unemployed for a whole 4 days!). So don't through stones if you live in a glass house yourself (because the picture is not rosy in a lot of places outside the Mon Valley either).

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by COPANUT

There was a time when you could graduate high school and get a job that would support you and a family with physical labor. All up and down the rivers that was part of the American Dream. Take a drive along those rivers now. Nothing but ghosts towns. Even the much touted Homestead Works area. Great, replace about 30 thousand good paying jobs with 10 bucks plus tips service workers, yeah, the Pgh area is recovering. LOL

I don't think a lot of people would want those jobs in the modern economy. Personally I think if the mills were here we would be suffering badly now, we wouldn't have modernized as much, and I think the mill would have hired immigrants over the generations of people who worked in the mills now. Just my 2 cents if Pittsburgh still had a lot of mills.

[Awesomo.2000]

Originally Posted by bradjl2009

I don't think a lot of people would want those jobs in the modern economy. Personally I think if the mills were here we would be suffering badly now, we wouldn't have modernized as much, and I think the mill would have hired immigrants over the generations of people who worked in the mills now. Just my 2 cents if Pittsburgh still had a lot of mills.

Exactly, this was a comment I made to Copanut in another thread about clairton today:

White collar jobs have been on the rise in Pittsburgh. We have diversified our economy which brought in more white collar jobs, but far less jobs as the blue collar ones went away. The days of graduating highschool, going down to the mill, getting a job, and marrying Jane down the street who you knew from Elementary school, and having 5 kids type of days are over. There will never as many blue collar jobs in America anywhere anymore. We need to move on, and concentrate how to bring more white & green collar jobs here. It is 2009, it is not suprising that Those without an education are going to be left behind. I mean, even without a college degree you can still make yourself usefull to make good money. Go to a 2 year tech school, learn autocad, and become a designer. There are many in this field that did that and do very well.

As to the Mon Valley. I don't know what to say. Everybody on this board, and another that I post on think it is just meant to die. I think with a certain amount of creativity, community effort, and political leadership we could find a use for the Mon Valley. Maybe with clean energy there can be an industry to supply it with jobs. Nothing is easier than saying, "There is no use for it anymore". We just need creative and strong leadership which is hard to get in an area where some think the mills may still come back.

[Awesomo.2000]

The replacing of uneducated jobs from Blue collar industry jobs to service jobs has been happening all over the country, and not just Pittsburgh. The Pittsburgh area has recovered well over other rust belt towns. (Please note, I said other RUST BELT TOWNS, not sunbelt towns, so don't come arguing with me that we arn't Charlotte.) We have diversified much more, brought in many more white collar jobs, and are in much better shape than many other rust belt towns.

We will never keep changing this area around with the idea that we need to go back to yesteryear's economy and bring back the mills, graduate highschool with no education, marry our highschool honey, have 5 kids, and live happily ever after. Times change, and you have to change with them, or be left in the dust. The mon valley is left in the dust, and a lot of it is the lack of creativity and Political leadership to consider how to move it forward.

[Copanut]

I grew up in a blue collar town but from day 1 my Mother informed all of us we would be college educated. Funny part was, my older brother became a union welder and made a ton of money. Anyway, I agree, the old mill days are gone and not coming back. But not everyone is capable of white collar work, which is why the mills were a Godsend for a lot of people in this area.

Unfortunately, a lot of people are still waiting for those jobs to come back. Ain't gonna happen.

[Awesomo.2000]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

To be brutally honest, I'm just not sure every former steel town, particularly the ones at a relative distance to Downtown, can really survive Pittsburgh's transition to a smaller city with a different economy.

I agree. Former Steel neighborhoods like Lawerenceville and the southside flats will, and have recovered well with transitioning into a more smaller city with a more diverse economy. However, the Mon Valley is screwed unless two things happen:

1. Pittsburgh once again becomes a booming, growing city again. (You never know what will happen 2 decades from now). The need for suburban living shifts to the Mon Valley with TOD(train oriented development) suburban style towns. You have a train linking people from these towns which would provide livable, walkable, communities. This is way in the future. You can never predict the future, and I really feel pittsburgh will become a booming town again in our kids, or grandkids generation, especially with all the resources in the rust belt.

2. Local government and creative leadership actually finds a need for these towns with the changing economy and times. Could it be something in green energy? Local manufacturing of a new technological product? Who knows?

But right now, they will be rundown and crime filled for atleast in my lifetime.

[italianbluesboy]

There are two kinds of arguments on this web: logical and emotional.

The logical is best exemplified by:

Originally Posted by PeterRabbit

Merger seems to be a good idea. Considering the hard times and nothing getting better in these towns, why have 6 chiefs of police/fire depts., mayors, tax collectors, etc?

The emotional would be:

Originally Posted by Bazzwell

These are all active communities with families, businesses and industry. Life goes on here for those who chose to stay and participate. Residents understand they aren't the crown jewels of the area anymore but see no reason to take the "welcome to our town" signs down anytime soon.

I was once a Mon Valley resident, but that was many years ago. Some of us on the outside looking in can see things in a different, more objective light than those that still live there, and maybe even have a vested interest in selling homes there.

I just don't see how Braddock has lost 90% of its population, features so many dilapidated structures, and is in the Top 3 most abandoned towns in PA, and still has Much Going For It.

Drover isn't insulting the residents, he is just observing their newer, post 1980 reality. Just because the borough governments merge, that doesn't change where the people live on McKean Ave or that they go to church at St. Anthony's. And I don't think the Valley is done shrinking yet. The Allenport mill closed, the Brownsville hospital closed, and that was just in the last year.

Even the WV board is having a dialogue about merging Harrison, Marion, and Monongalia Counties for the betterment of their citizens and their tax dollars.


http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicc/cfiles5795.jpg

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Awesomo.2000

1. Pittsburgh once again becomes a booming, growing city again. (You never know what will happen 2 decades from now). The need for suburban living shifts to the Mon Valley with TOD(train oriented development) suburban style towns. You have a train linking people from these towns which would provide livable, walkable, communities. This is way in the future. You can never predict the future, and I really feel pittsburgh will become a booming town again in our kids, or grandkids generation, especially with all the resources in the rust belt.

You are absolutely right that once you start talking about a longer timescale, this sort of thing becomes possible. Not to be a downer, however, but even in a scenario like this you are going to see communities along all three rivers competing to get in on the action, and unfortunately there could still be winners and losers in that process . . . but at a minimum it would create room for a lot more winners.

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by Awesomo.2000

Exactly, this was a comment I made to Copanut in another thread about clairton today:

White collar jobs have been on the rise in Pittsburgh. We have diversified our economy which brought in more white collar jobs, but far less jobs as the blue collar ones went away. The days of graduating highschool, going down to the mill, getting a job, and marrying Jane down the street who you knew from Elementary school, and having 5 kids type of days are over. There will never as many blue collar jobs in America anywhere anymore. We need to move on, and concentrate how to bring more white & green collar jobs here. It is 2009, it is not suprising that Those without an education are going to be left behind. I mean, even without a college degree you can still make yourself usefull to make good money. Go to a 2 year tech school, learn autocad, and become a designer. There are many in this field that did that and do very well.

As to the Mon Valley. I don't know what to say. Everybody on this board, and another that I post on think it is just meant to die. I think with a certain amount of creativity, community effort, and political leadership we could find a use for the Mon Valley. Maybe with clean energy there can be an industry to supply it with jobs. Nothing is easier than saying, "There is no use for it anymore". We just need creative and strong leadership which is hard to get in an area where some think the mills may still come back.

While my parents are blue collar they definitely don't have that mentality (they married around 35!) and they told me I'm going to college also. I'm personally glad that era is over; I wouldn't want to live in a Pittsburgh like the one in the first paragraph.