Are people still leaving Pittsburgh? (Bethel Park, Mount Lebanon: insurance, chapel, hotels)

[Katiana]

Basically, you have to be careful when using numbers. People are always misinterpreting them.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by LiveinPA

It's rather mainstream that the air quality in Pgh is poor. It's also the worst kind of small-particulate air pollution that is hard to control and then continues to repollute in rain water. Pittsburgh, Los Angeles have worst U.S. air pollution | Reuters

We've addressed the ALA rankings quite a bit here before. The upshot is that they are using data that averages in a spot reading in Clairton that throws the whole ranking off. Here are a couple relevant discussions:

Welcome (back) to 'Smoky City'?

PittsburghToday: Misleading Headlines on Air Quality (by Harold D. Miller)

In short, while a comparable monthly payment may get you a comparable home in Pgh when compared to other states . . .

Even with the relatively high tax rates, the monthly payment in Pittsburgh will be considerably lower for most comparable homes in most cities of comparable size.

[LiveinPA]

Even with the relatively high tax rates, the monthly payment in Pittsburgh will be considerably lower for most comparable homes in most cities of comparable size.

Regardless of monthly payment amounts, the point is that taxes go straight to government. If the taxes were lower the real estate would appreciate in value. That would add value to private economy in numerous ways.

In addition, the business climate in all of PA is practically hostile to small business. Take a look at the following chart and see that PA's corporate taxes are basically the highest in the US at 9.99%. Corporate Income Tax Rates--2008

As far as pollution is concerned, this area has a problem. We can debate how bad it is, but it's not good. Look at this acid rain chart: http://nadp.sws.uiuc.edu/isopleths/maps2007/phlab.gif

And yes, Pgh continues to lose young people at a high rate.

The Pitt News - Pittsburgh is still losing youth, jobs

While the number of Pittsburghers in their 20s and early 30s steadily sank during the last three decades, the 2000 census showed that the tide might have turned.

But since then, the situation has gotten much worse, even with community efforts.

The number of people age 20 to 34 living in the city dropped 21 percent the first five years of the new century, according to a survey released last year by the U.S. Census Bureau. This 14,000 person decline roughly equals that age group's decrease in the 10 years prior.

According to Forbes Magazine's annual look at the country's 40 largest cities, Pittsburgh ranked near the bottom in "attractiveness to youth" for the fourth year running.

See also: Pittsburgh Is A Pit For Singles - Forbes.com

The Steel City is unforgiving to the unattached, coming near the bottom of all of the criteria we used to rank the best cities for singles. Pittsburgh was 33rd out of the 40 metro areas we examined in our singles ratio (see "Best Cities For Singles"). This should not be surprising when you consider that Allegheny county, where Pittsburgh is located, has the oldest population of any county in the U.S. outside Palm Beach County in Florida. Almost 18% of Allegheny's population is over 65, compared to 23.2% of Palm Beach.

A Word from Eric Miller

But not everyone agreed. Since then the population has been dwindling, mostly due to an exodus of 20-34 year-olds, and a lack of anyone coming in to replace them. There's quite a bit of discussion going on in Pittsburgh all the time about how to keep more young people home.

Rust Belt Realities: Pittsburgh Needs New Leaders, New Ideas and New Citizens | Newgeography.com

The era when Pittsburgh was a big-business town is all but over. In 1960, 22 Fortune 500 companies were headquartered there. Now it's roughly a third that number. High taxes, tiresome regulatory regimes and the enormous burden created by outsized city employee pensions have hit the small entrepreneur hardest.

Again, if Pgh is your thing that's cool. Most of the people I talk to express their frustration and when I bring up the topic of leaving almost all of them admit considering the same or plan to within the coming years.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by LiveinPA

And yes, Pgh continues to lose young people at a high rate.

The Pitt News - Pittsburgh is still losing youth, jobs

I'm not sure what Census-data The Pitt News was citing, but I would note it appears to be specifically about the City, which I again don't think is a particularly useful unit. There is also a problem with using the Census population estimates for municipalities: to summarize a complex subject, they collect data primarily on a county level and then impute it to municipalities, and this can give bad estimates for municipalities if they are not experiencing the same dynamics as the county as a whole.

[bradjl2009]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I'm not sure what Census-data The Pitt News was citing, but I would note it appears to be specifically about the City, which I again don't think is a particularly useful unit. There is also a problem with using the Census population estimates for municipalities: to summarize a complex subject, they collect data primarily on a county level and then impute it to municipalities, and this can give bad estimates for municipalities if they are not experiencing the same dynamics as the county as a whole.

I agree and I'm pretty sure the results for the 2000 Census were actually at least 20,000 higher for the county than what the census said. I'm not sure where I saw it or how much by, but I do remember seeing their estimates for 2000 and the actual population then and it was higher than the estimates. IMO Census estimates can be unreliable and enforce sterotypes.

[shy chic]

I t hink north of Pittsburgh--Cranberry twp.etc is growing and is one of the better areas of the city (I don't live in Pittsburgh,but have family there). Clairton and Elizabeth,on the other hand look kind of dirty and dumpy to me when I've driven that way. It's sad how the South Hills area (around century III) seems to have gone downhill.

[creepsinc]

Originally Posted by LiveinPA

There's sort of a strange mindset I see on the Pgh boards here that I haven't really seen on the other City Data boards...people will argue opinion against fact all day long.

For example, someone on the AZ boards might say "I hate AZ because it is sooo hot!"

Others will then respond with positive things like, "yes, it's very hot here and not everyone likes it. It feel it's balanced against the job market and I enjoy the sun anyway so it works for me."

or maybe "yes, it's really hot but once I got used to it I liked so much better than living in Ohio."

But on the Pgh boards I see things like, "I don't like how cloudy Pgh is..." and the responses will be people actually arguing that Pgh isn't that cloudy or that weather is worse in Antarctica.

Pittsburgh is a very elderly city and younger families (45ish and under) tend to leave at a high rate. Now if your OPINION is that that is irrelevant or unimportant or even a good thing- that's fine. But to say that Pgh is not an "old" city is flat out incorrect. The data shows there is a large elderly population here.

If you love Pgh then it's great you are living where you love. I don't like it here and voice my opinion to that effect plainly. At the same time I am fully aware that other people love it and that's OK too!

How much you like or dislike a place does not change the facts...Pgh is a city with a high elderly population, high taxes, high amounts of "invisible" air pollution and generally unpleasant weather when compared to many other places. If your good outweighs those bads...then more power to you.

Many people do move to Pgh to raise families...we are moving out to raise a family and will probably not return any time in the near future.

So yes, SOME people are still leaving just as with any city...Pgh suffers this exodus more than most.

If you spend more than a year or two living somewhere you can't stand, you are an utter failure, in the worst possible way. Sad, but true.

[Copanut]

Originally Posted by creepsinc

If you spend more than a year or two living somewhere you can't stand, you are an utter failure, in the worst possible way. Sad, but true.

You are correct, Sir!!!

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by LiveinPA

Regardless of monthly payment amounts, the point is that taxes go straight to government. If the taxes were lower the real estate would appreciate in value. That would add value to private economy in numerous ways.

In addition, the business climate in all of PA is practically hostile to small business. Take a look at the following chart and see that PA's corporate taxes are basically the highest in the US at 9.99%. Corporate Income Tax Rates--2008

As far as pollution is concerned, this area has a problem. We can debate how bad it is, but it's not good. Look at this acid rain chart: http://nadp.sws.uiuc.edu/isopleths/maps2007/phlab.gif

And yes, Pgh continues to lose young people at a high rate.

The Pitt News - Pittsburgh is still losing youth, jobs





See also: Pittsburgh Is A Pit For Singles - Forbes.com



A Word from Eric Miller



Rust Belt Realities: Pittsburgh Needs New Leaders, New Ideas and New Citizens | Newgeography.com



Again, if Pgh is your thing that's cool. Most of the people I talk to express their frustration and when I bring up the topic of leaving almost all of them admit considering the same or plan to within the coming years.

Unfortunately, I agree. I say unfortunately because I don't wish Pittsburgh to fail. I would love nothing more than to see this city make a strong comeback. It's not horrible, but there are some obvious things that can easily be addressed however, the mindset in this area is to ignore it. For example, the litter. Argue all you want about it, but the fact of the matter is much of Pittsburgh is not taken care of very well.
When I was younger, I lived amongst many Polish people and they were always out in their driveways and sidewalks sweeping away the dirt. Nowadays you can't get anyone to pick up their own litter! It drives me nuts! I have spent many a day organizing and following through with the clean up of the streets and parks around my neighborhood. Quite frankly, I'm tired of picking up everybody else's crap. It's a problem here and no one seems to care! I can not tell you how many times I have had people stare at me while I bend down and retrieve bits of paper bags and old pop cans. I'm not sure if it's a generational thing or what, but it's becoming progressively worse and is making our city look terrible to outsiders.
I guess my biggest beef is how little respect Pittsburghers have for their surroundings. It truly breaks my heart.
My family is also actively looking to relocate. I can't fight city hall anymore, it's too exhausting.

[Tallysmom]

Originally Posted by Katiana

You need to learn or review what you learned about ratios and proportion. For every 12.6 seniors in the general US population, there are 16.9 in Pittsburgh. Actually, I did that in my head when I posted, but working it out on a calculator, 16.9 divided by 12.6 is 1.34, meaning 34% more. It's not simple addition and subtraction. For every 100 seniors in the general population (roughly 12.5 X 8 = 100), there are 135 (approx) in Pittsburgh.

Originally Posted by LiveinPA

You're right. It's actually a little over 34%.

I imagine some people using "congress math" would say the difference is 4.3% but this is incorrect arithmetic. You don't subtract percentages to find out their relationship.

12.6 times 1.34 is 16.884 or just about 16.9%. So that's a 34% increase over the base.

If I have 12.6 pieces of pizza and you have 16.9 pieces you would have roughly 34% more pizza than me. Same thing.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Actually, expressing the difference between percentages as a percentage tends to confuse people, since you are now taking a percentage of a percentage.

Originally Posted by Katiana

The denominator is 12.6, not 100. This is basic ratios.

Originally Posted by Katiana

If the increase were 4.3%, Pittsburgh's population of elderly would be 13.1%.

Originally Posted by Hopes

Katiana, I'll admit that I was a bit confused for a minute there. I do understand your point now.

I think expressing the ratio as a percentage makes it sound way worse than 4:3.

To quote Homer Simpson.... my puzzler hurts.