Pittsburgh has an inferiority complex (Penn, Geneva: crime, transfer, law school)

[ctoocheck]

Originally Posted by tjv189

nuwaver88, thanks for at least respecting my opinion, like some others fail to do. I tried to answer your questions in my other post. But you state that the data says otherwise, that Pittsburgh isn't a rat hole. Sure there is one poll that said it is a very livable city (based on its lower standard of living), but there are other polls that say it is one of the most depressed cities in America, and that it is one of the most polluted cities in America. So these bits of data suggest that it is indeed a sorry place to be. Take a look at these if you think I'm making this stuff up:

Links: America's Happiest and Most Depressed Cities [Archive] - GreekChat.com Forums

America's Most Polluted Cities Revealed - ABC News

Hey.

#1. Pretty much everything in this thread (and most of this forum) says good things about Pittsburgh. If you are looking for things saying good things, please do check that out.
#2. I have also been many places besides Pgh, most recently DC. I am quite glad to be back. Others agree.
#3. These links you provide are not reliable. First and most notably, the depressed/happy poll (as the link is to some frat website or something? What is this based on?). Then, if you've been paying attention, you would know the pollution rating is not accurate. Look it up. (hint: it involves one pollution metering station downwind from Clairton). Props on finding two random negative polls.
#4. I might bet that if you spent an extended period of time outside Pgh (if you have not yet; I don't know how long you were in Ft Worth) that you would come to appreciate a lot about it. Perhaps some is just your taste; you mention you liked the "newness." I prefer the "oldness" in Pgh, though that is just me and you are welcome to you opinion otherwise. Just don't bash in the process.
#5. If you don't know people who can think of things to do besides get drunk in the Southside (though it is fun), you need to find new people!
#6. I will not take the time to go point-by-point
-dirty, polluted (mostly FALSE)
-rude, unfriendly, narrow-minded residents (narrow-minded, perhaps. unfriendly: FLASE.)
-high taxes and corrupt people running the city (Ravenstahl, I'm looking right at you) (conceded!)
-extremely poor roadways (not EXTREMELY, perhaps MOSTLY )
-lack of unique things to do (every big city has sports teams, people) (I disagree. Look around, really!)
-terrible job market for everything except medical field and banking (not much opportunity) (no opinion)
-the city is dying, losing population very fast (losing population slower than before, at least!! )
-weather is extremely poor most of the year (either too hot/humid or way too cold/miserable) (I find the weather to have been quite nice lately. Compared to DC, summers are wonderful. Winters.....cold, yes.)
-living in the past (maybe a bit. I dunno)
-city has no identity other than a sports team (that is pretty lame if you ask me) (well, sports are a large part, perhaps, but not all whatsoever. What Pgh "is" is hard to spell out.)
-relatively high crime for a city of only 300,000 people (false by my understanding)
-city is crowded for only having 300,000 people (denser, perhaps. but not everywhere. And I kinda like it.)
-young population is moving away, so Pittsburgh can't keep any educated young people there (perhaps so. I don't have the figures. You really can't give an opinion on things like this, it is a fact of some sort, and you have to have the numbers to back it.)

end.

[tjv189]

ctoocheck,

The 'Most Depressed Cities' poll was posted on a message board, but the same results are on a few other websites I found. Let's try this one:

America’s Unhappiest Cities: Pittsburgh, Pa. - BusinessWeek

On there, Pittsburgh is listed as one of the most miserable (or unhappy?) cities in America. It's by busniessweek, so its more reliable since you asked for one. And don't accuse me of bashing, because it seems you are trying to do that to me here too. I'm trying to go about this argument in a rather civil way, and I'm not looking to make anyone mad; I'm looking to get a better understanding of why people think Pittsburgh is a good city when I think its crap. So let's not start any ad homenim arguments here please.

People on here saying 'good' things about Pittsburgh are all opinion-based, just like the things you and I are saying. So you can't take what they are saying to be true, and rule out the things I'm saying as false like you did in response to some of my points, without reasoning to back it up. That is a double standard. In a previous post, I was asked to provide reasons any other city was better than Pittsburgh and I did, so how about instead of just putting 'FALSE' at the end of my points, like you did with some of them, could you please give some reasons why they are false? And besides, it seems you partially agreed with just as many of my points as you disagreed with. So, I rest my case on those!

I have spent more time outside of western PA than most people on here probably. In a previous job I had, I did a lot of traveling and was away from PA for about 2-3 weeks at a time. Actually, being away from here for that amount of time made me want to live in PA even LESS. It's just mostly taste, like you said, and I believe you are right on that. You like the "oldness" of Pittsburgh, and that's fine. You are entitled to your opinion. Personally, I can't stand the oldness, its ugly and rusty-looking to me. I've spent quite a bit of time in LA, Chicago, Atlanta, Indianapolis, Denver, and some other, smaller cities also. While none of those places are perfect, they all have more to my liking than Pittsburgh by far. Does that mean you should like them all better than Pittsburgh? No. It just means that I like them all better than Pittsburgh. Granted, there are places just as bad or worse off than Pittsburgh (Detroit, Cleveland, Philly, Newark NJ) but they are all irrelevant to this argument, so I won't go into detail about them.

I'm not trying to change anyone's opinion here, as I've said before. It's just that I feel it might be possible that a lot of the people who think Pittsburgh is a great place just don't get around enough to see other cities that are growing and not dying. I'm not saying you haven't seen other places, but I think some of the people I know need to get out of Pittsburgh and see America. In my opinion, there is a whole rest of the country out there, with a lot more to offer most people than Pittsburgh does in a lot of cases.

[ctoocheck]

People on here saying 'good' things about Pittsburgh are all opinion-based, just like the things you and I are saying.

Perhaps so. The two things I noted as false, regarding pollution and friendliness, might indeed be regarded as straight false, regardless of opinion. Well, really I don't know about pollution in actual rankings. But I do know that the ALA rating that found Pgh as so polluted was skewed (see former note regarding Clairton). In additon, I do think Pittsburghers are quite friendly, though I could see that perhaps in many cases they are not so open-minded which might be seen as unfriendliness. But that is rather subjective I suppose.

Second, by spending time outside Pgh, I mean LIVING elsewhere, not just spending a few weeks away. Perhaps if you spend a year or two somewhere else, you might find these places you find desirable to not be all they're cracked up to be. But this is, of course, all opinion and not objectifiable.

Anyway, Pittsburgh is not THAT bad. Other places are different. They have different things which are not necessarily better nor worse in many cases. To me, Pittsburgh is sweet.

This is a tough battle of opionion. I could probably find lots of figures and things to make things seems nice but some opposite figures could probaly be found somewhere. I find most people do enjoy Pgh, though many do think that it does not offer enough. I suppose those people prefer NY or Chicago; fewer cities of our size might match.

Agree to disagree for now, or something, n'at.



PS: that rating that showed Pgh as #14 "most unhappy" showed Portland as #1 "most unhappy". That seems odd, isn't Portland supposed to be some kind of oasis of sorts?

[BrianTH]

There are quite a few regulars on this board who did not grow up in the area and/or have lived elsewhere for an extended period. For example, I grew up in the northern suburbs of Detroit, went to college in New Haven, law school in Chicago, and spent a couple years working in DC.

[ctoocheck]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

There are quite a few regulars on this board who did not grow up in the area and/or have lived elsewhere for an extended period. For example, I grew up in the northern suburbs of Detroit, went to college in New Haven, law school in Chicago, and spent a couple years working in DC.

...and, you are saying, these people do, in fact, appreciate the subtle beauty of Pgh, proving, in part, its sweetness? Or otherwise?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ctoocheck

...and, you are saying, these people do, in fact, appreciate the subtle beauty of Pgh, proving, in part, its sweetness? Or otherwise?

Well, I have made the choice to live here, and generally I think the area has a lot going for it now and a very promising future. But I don't want to speak for anyone else here on that subject.

[tjv189]

ctoocheck,

I'll have to do a little research on the false pollution readings. I haven't heard that before.

You are right, the friendliness factor is subjective to some extent. I don't know, from my experience it just seems like Pittsburghers I've met have seemed to be rather self-important and very difficult to get along with. I know this is just the ones I've met. I'm sure there are some very friendly people in Pittsburgh, but the majority of the several I've met seem to be rather narrow-minded and unfriendly. I guess it is possible that I've just met quite a few fools that are unfriendly for no reason.

Well, since I had that job for 5 1/2 years, I did spend quite a lot of time in those various cities, meeting different people there and doing different things there. You're right, I've never actually LIVED any of those places, and maybe if I did, things would seem different. But I'm pretty confident that I would like living in a lot of those places more than I would in western PA. Again, this is just what I think from my experiences.

That's fine if you think Pittsburgh is good. That's your opinion, and I'm not going to hold it against you. I'm glad you found a place you like, and hopefully I will do the same when I leave western PA.

You are right, if you find numbers to back up your claims, someone on my side could find numbers to negate the claims and we will end up getting nowhere. So I guess what we have established here is that it is mostly a matter of opinion. Plain and simple.

On a side note, I found that kind of surprising that Portland was #1 too. I've actually never been there, but I have heard it was at least a decent city. I agree with most of the other cities on the list, but that is my opinion once again. Anyways, thanks for trying to carry on this argument in a civil way. We get a lot more done that way!

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by Lionpainter

I'm a native Pittsburgher, yinzzer...I wouldn't trade Pittsburgh for any other city out there. Sure I love to see other places, but Pittsburgh is Home. It's a very unique place and it continues to lead the way on many fronts. Medical, technology, sports, (GOPENS) Arts, and recreation. And, yes the burg has had some rough times, but I think the people in Pittsburgh are kind people. Sure you got your bad apples and crab apples but we have some delicious apples too. Dinning, movies, theater, coffee shops, music, it's all here. And besides that we have three rivers, one runs north and an aquifer larger than the rivers. Stand up and shout.

OK, I have to say a few things about this post. Pittsburgh is not "leading the way" in any of those areas. Medical (more apprppriately health care): there is not one leader. Pitt has some great health care things going on, but so do many other cities, to wit, NYC, Boston, Philadelphia, Chicago and most every large US city. Thomas Starzl got his start in liver transplants at the University of Colorado Health Science Center, then he got into some disagreement with them and packed up and went to Pittsburgh. And so forth.

Technology: Again, no one clear "leader". Not my area of expertise, though it is my spouse's. There are many technology centers in the US. Silicon Valley is still a player, Seattle, Austin, many others. CMU is a great school, but it's not the only one.

Sports: Well, you've got your "Stillers" and the Penguins won the Stanley Cup, but hey, the Avalanche have won it too, and you guys don't even support your Pirates, who BTW, lost to the Rockies tonight.

Arts: Ditto as to Health and Technology.

Recreation: Again, ditto. What form of recreation is associated with Pittsburgh? Denver has skiing (though not in the city, but that's why people go there), Moab has mountain biking, California has the beaches, etc.

Be proud of your city, but be realistic, too.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Pittsburgh is not "leading the way" in any of those areas.

For what it is worth, I interpreted the other poster's comment as being consistent with the notion that Pittsburgh is one of several cities providing leadership in the relevant areas, as opposed to necessarily being the only leader.

[Katiana]

Yes, well. My father used to talk up Pittsburgh a lot like Lionpainter, and I was a grown adult before I found out that many other cities, indeed, probably all of them, have their points of civic pride. Every city Chamber of Commerce tells you how much they have going on in the arts, schools (everyone's is the 'best'), etc. I think it actually helps to have lived in more than one place, you keep your perspective.

I do agree that Pittsburgh has a lot going for it.