Pittsburgh has an inferiority complex (State College, Washington: 2009, insurance, condominiums)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by JoeLeaphorn

Problem is that you can't sustain it, especially with the long term debt that the City has.

The debt is a problem, but it is also a legacy of the last boom-and-bust-cycle, and thus ultimately a temporary issue if we get on a sustainable low-growth path.

Moreover, being a college town does not lead to retention of young people in any numbers.

I think that depends on what you mean. Obviously college towns have relatively high turnover if you look at the overall statistics for people of university age. But the more relevant question, I would suggest, is what sort of long term effects you might see, and college towns with a healthy mix in the local economy can in fact attract and retain young people outside of the university-driven churn. Which leads me to . . .

How many overgrown college towns can you actually name?

Off the top of my head, Providence, Boston, Austin, Raleigh-Durham, Columbus, San Jose-Santa Clara-Palo Alto . . . Washington DC in some respects, along with Minneapolis, San Diego, and Seattle too.

Of course if you think internationally, you could add cities like Melbourne, Bologna, Manchester, and I am sure many others.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by tjv189

Some people are saying the people who hate Pittsburgh are probably lifelong natives..........I disagree. I think its usually quite the contrary, actually. At least it is with the guys I know who live in Pittsburgh: they never really travel or spend time in any other places too often.

I'll again just note that many people here aren't from the area originally. Of course that doesn't contradict your claim that you know people who don't have a lot of experience with other cities but think Pittsburgh is great. Rather, it suggests you are wrong to assume that people who like Pittsburgh fall into that category.

I think some of the people who think Pittsburgh is great need to get around and experience the great things about other metro areas. You might be pleasantly surprised how many good places are out there that you would rather be (like I was), or, you might come back and be glad to be back in Pittsburgh. But you will never know until you get out there and see the country.

I certainly agree it is not a bad idea for young people to at least travel a lot, and if possible live in some different places, before deciding where they want to settle down. Again, I'd just stress that some of us who have ended up liking Pittsburgh and choosing to live here have done that.

[BrianTH]

On the subject of the various rankings where Pittsburgh does well: it certainly would be overreading the results to suggest such studies prove Pittsburgh is a great place to live for anyone regardless of their preferences and circumstances. Indeed, that is almost certainly wrong.

On the other hand, I do think they suggest that those who claim Pittsburgh is somehow objectively a bad place to live are also overstating their case. Again, it really comes down to your preferences and circumstances.

[tjv189]

BrianTH,

Most people I know who live in Pittsburgh have moved there from other places in western PA. Again, these are just the ones I know. But I don't consider moving there from somewhere else in western PA as being "not from the area". I was kinda grouping those people as being from Pittsburgh, because they are from the general area. However, I see how you could have misunderstood what I meant. I should have made that more clear. Again, I'm saying the people I KNOW who live in Pittsburgh haven't really seen much of the rest of the country, I'm not saying that is true for everyone who likes Pittsburgh.

And I also understand that some people who like Pittsburgh have seen other places, and still prefer Pittsburgh. That is exactly what people should do in order to arrive at a conclusion of what places are nice, or a good fit for them. And if you have done that and still like Pittsburgh, then more power to you. However, I'm the other way around. I have seen lots of places and tend to believe that they would all be a better fit for me that Pittsburgh is, by far. It's my preference, as you stated. I just seem to be happier in those other places, and seem to be able to get along with others much easier in the other places also. Maybe you felt the same way about Pittsburgh.

All I'm saying is I don't like Pittsburgh. That doesn't mean anyone else shouldn't. I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind why people think Pittsburgh would be better than many other places, because it's something I just don't understand. That's all. I'm not trying to make anyone mad or change anyone's opinion of the place.

[ctoocheck]

Some people are saying the people who hate Pittsburgh are probably lifelong natives..........I disagree.

I think both cases are true - some people who have never experienced otherwise see Pgh as a haven just from familiarity - they are optomistic. This is what they've experienced thier whole lives, this is what they are, this is where the belong. They know what is wonderful about Pittsburgh (and we do have many great things) This is not to say there is nothing good anywhere else.
(relatedly, perhaps this outlook might also be found in much of the "American" mindset. Rejection of anything foreign and intense patriotism.)

There are also people who have never left and hate Pgh, again, I think, because of familiarity. "The grass is always greener" syndrome. They are pessimistic, and find all the things that are wrong (and we do have our share as well). In addition, I can imagine some of the older generation might be cynical having seen Pgh decline in past decades

[Katiana]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I'll again just note that many people here aren't from the area originally. Of course that doesn't contradict your claim that you know people who don't have a lot of experience with other cities but think Pittsburgh is great. Rather, it suggests you are wrong to assume that people who like Pittsburgh fall into that category.



I certainly agree it is not a bad idea for young people to at least travel a lot, and if possible live in some different places, before deciding where they want to settle down. Again, I'd just stress that some of us who have ended up liking Pittsburgh and choosing to live here have done that.

From CD's main page, also posted earlier in this thread:

Pittsburgh:
Place of birth for U.S.-born residents:

This state: 261318 (83%)
Northeast: 13428 (4.3%)
Midwest: 13593 (4.3%)
South: 20546 (6.6%)
West: 4682 (1.5%)

58% of Pittsburgh residents lived in the same house 5 years ago.
Out of people who lived in different houses, 68% lived in this county.
Out of people who lived in different counties, 46% lived in Pennsylvania.
5.6% foreign-born

Numbers do not add up to 100% due to rounding and foreign-born residents
(From CD)

My experience is that most people in Pittsburgh are from Pittsburgh or western/central Pennsylvania. It is surprising (in a sense) to me that considering Ohio is considered the midwest by the census bureau, and W. Virginia the south, that so few residents were born there. This is even true in Beaver County, which has a border with both.

For a comparison city, here is Chicago, another Rust Belt industrial city.

Chicago:
Place of birth for U.S.-born residents:

This state: 1671466 (58%)
Northeast: 64908 (22%)
Midwest: 142294 (5%)
South: 287843 (10)%
West: 39669 (1.3%)

58% of Chicago residents lived in the same house 5 years ago.
Out of people who lived in different houses, 81% lived in this county.
Out of people who lived in different counties, 26% lived in Illinois.
21.7% foreign-born

I think this makes a huge difference in Pittsburgh's outlook. All these native Pennsylvanians, many of whom, frankly, have never lived anywhere else.

Many of the posts on CD remind me of conversations I have heard for the past 50 years, around the dinner table and whenever people got together.

Some examples:

"Why live anywhere else?":

We don't have damaging weather. Score for Pittsburgh. I have never heard of an earthquake in Pgh, and I can only recall one tornado there in my lifetime (happened on my birthday!) OTOH, when I moved to Illinois, I came to love the blizzards, the below zero weather and bone chilling cold. The summers in Champaign were a little to hot to my taste. In Colorado, the weather really can change every five minutes. I love the thunderstorms and lightning. I just recently told DH that I had seen hail before I came here, but not very often.

Corollary: We have four seasons. Well, so does every place in the northern 2/3 of the US, excluding the west coast.

These sunbelt cities are going to bust someday! Present recession excluded, this has not happened, and the sunbelt cities seem to bounce back from recession more quickly.

Pittsburgh is the only city that has: a big arts community, public benefactors such as the Carnegies, Heinzes, Mellons, etc, winning sports teams, first class health care facilities, first tier colleges and universities, etc.

The above, which I believed until I lived somewhere else, is simply untrue. Every city with a metro the size of Pittsburgh's, has the above. Even some smaller cities do.

There aren't any jobs in (insert name of city here), either, and its corollary, I know someone who went to (insert name of city here, couldn't find a job, and moved back. This is a typical attitude I have heard expressed more times than I could ever count. It seems to be used as an excuse. I'm not advocating in this recession that anyone move anywhere, and if someone really likes Pittsburgh I think they should look there first, but back when the steel industry crashed and the rest of the country was doing well, this attitude made no sense.

I think it is fine for people to like Pittsburgh. Anywhere there is a large collection of people is obviously a good place to live.

[highway29south]

Originally Posted by Katiana

From CD's main page, also posted earlier in this thread:

Pittsburgh:
Place of birth for U.S.-born residents:

This state: 261318 (83%)
Northeast: 13428 (4.3%)
Midwest: 13593 (4.3%)
South: 20546 (6.6%)
West: 4682 (1.5%)

58% of Pittsburgh residents lived in the same house 5 years ago.
Out of people who lived in different houses, 68% lived in this county.
Out of people who lived in different counties, 46% lived in Pennsylvania.
5.6% foreign-born

Numbers do not add up to 100% due to rounding and foreign-born residents
(From CD)

My experience is that most people in Pittsburgh are from Pittsburgh or western/central Pennsylvania. It is surprising (in a sense) to me that considering Ohio is considered the midwest by the census bureau, and W. Virginia the south, that so few residents were born there. This is even true in Beaver County, which has a border with both.

For a comparison city, here is Chicago, another Rust Belt industrial city.

Chicago:
Place of birth for U.S.-born residents:

This state: 1671466 (58%)
Northeast: 64908 (22%)
Midwest: 142294 (5%)
South: 287843 (10)%
West: 39669 (1.3%)

58% of Chicago residents lived in the same house 5 years ago.
Out of people who lived in different houses, 81% lived in this county.
Out of people who lived in different counties, 26% lived in Illinois.
21.7% foreign-born

I think this makes a huge difference in Pittsburgh's outlook. All these native Pennsylvanians, many of whom, frankly, have never lived anywhere else.

Many of the posts on CD remind me of conversations I have heard for the past 50 years, around the dinner table and whenever people got together.

Some examples:

"Why live anywhere else?":

We don't have damaging weather. Score for Pittsburgh. I have never heard of an earthquake in Pgh, and I can only recall one tornado there in my lifetime (happened on my birthday!) OTOH, when I moved to Illinois, I came to love the blizzards, the below zero weather and bone chilling cold. The summers in Champaign were a little to hot to my taste. In Colorado, the weather really can change every five minutes. I love the thunderstorms and lightning. I just recently told DH that I had seen hail before I came here, but not very often.

Corollary: We have four seasons. Well, so does every place in the northern 2/3 of the US, excluding the west coast.

These sunbelt cities are going to bust someday! Present recession excluded, this has not happened, and the sunbelt cities seem to bounce back from recession more quickly.

Pittsburgh is the only city that has: a big arts community, public benefactors such as the Carnegies, Heinzes, Mellons, etc, winning sports teams, first class health care facilities, first tier colleges and universities, etc.

The above, which I believed until I lived somewhere else, is simply untrue. Every city with a metro the size of Pittsburgh's, has the above. Even some smaller cities do.

There aren't any jobs in (insert name of city here), either, and its corollary, I know someone who went to (insert name of city here, couldn't find a job, and moved back. This is a typical attitude I have heard expressed more times than I could ever count. It seems to be used as an excuse. I'm not advocating in this recession that anyone move anywhere, and if someone really likes Pittsburgh I think they should look there first, but back when the steel industry crashed and the rest of the country was doing well, this attitude made no sense.

I think it is fine for people to like Pittsburgh. Anywhere there is a large collection of people is obviously a good place to live.

So true. I grew up out of state and in the time I've lived in Pittsburgh, I've known only a handful of people who moved here from out of state. And they wanted to move back out. Most people move into Pittsburgh from bordering counties or mid-PA.

I don't dare say to people around me that I would prefer living elsewhere. Otherwise, I'll get "the stare" and the comment, "why in the world don't you like Pittsburgh?" Like I'm insane or something

People here have little to no experience living elsewhere. Out of the 20 or so people I know personally and see on a day to day basis, none of them have ever lived out of state. And believe me, I've asked. I get lonely here being the only person who knows what it is like outside the "Pittsburgh Bubble".

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by tjv189

Again, I'm saying the people I KNOW who live in Pittsburgh haven't really seen much of the rest of the country, I'm not saying that is true for everyone who likes Pittsburgh.

That's fine. I was just noting that many people posting here are not from the region (meaning not from Western PA at all).

I'm just trying to understand the reasoning behind why people think Pittsburgh would be better than many other places, because it's something I just don't understand. That's all. I'm not trying to make anyone mad or change anyone's opinion of the place.

I don't particularly like the formulation "better than many other places" because that makes it sound more objective than any such comparison could hope to be. But subjectively, I recently posted this list of things I like about Pittsburgh:

(1) Beautiful historic homes available in pleasant walkable neighborhoods for relatively low prices;

(2) Interesting topography and some great urban parks making use of it;

(3) The micro-neighborhood structure;

(4) The density of cultural amenities (including museums, sports, performing arts, and so on)

(5) Decent public transportation;

(6) Lots of interesting architecture (including bridges);

(7) Overall moderate climate;

(8) Proximity to a great variety of outdoor recreation options;

(9) A growing "creative class" economy; and

(10) A general uniqueness associated with being the only major city in a distinct region (whatever you want to call the northern half or so of Appalachia).

[BrianTH]

Katiana,

To clarify one point, the "here" in the first part of what you quoted was a reference to this board (specifically it was a reference back to my prior post, in which I stated "There are quite a few regulars on this board who did not grow up in the area and/or have lived elsewhere for an extended period."). I agree the Pittsburgh region itself currently has relatively few people from outside the nearby area (in fact, I suspect in your data, a high portion of those people from outside Allegheny County but inside PA actually came from Western PA specifically).

Edit: By the way, it seems to me you have presented rather easily refuted versions of some of the points you are attributing to other people in these conversations. For example, it is true that Pittsburgh is not the only city in the United States with a significant cultural legacy, but on the other hand I would suggest the stronger version of that point is that it has a relatively high density of cultural amenities for a city of its current size. The same would apply to the role of universities in the city: again it is far from the only major city in the United States with a lot of universities, but I think it is also true that the universities play a relatively large role for a city of its size (e.g., as I recall among the Top 40 cities, only Providence ranks higher in terms of percentage of college and graduate students). And so on.

[highway29south]

Yes, Pittsburgh does have a lot of great things going for it. No one can argue with that. What I think a lot of "outsiders" object to is that natives seem to think Pittsburgh is the only place everyone should like, even given the fact that most of these natives have never lived anywhere else themselves. And if you live here and don't like it, you are treated differently because of that opinion.

Pittsburghers seem to have a great need to have everyone like this city. I can't explain why, even after so many years of living here myself. But it's the group mentality or nothing else that bothers people.