Pittsburgh has an inferiority complex (Denver, Manchester: fit in, move to, manufacturing)

[ditchdigger]

The operative definition of "defensive" for this discussion:

5.excessively concerned with guarding against the real or imagined threat of criticism, injury to one's ego, or exposure of one's shortcomings.

So it's amazingly, excessively, inappropriate to oppose a comment about Pittsburgh when somebody says it compares unfavorably to almost anyplace else? (Nobody has disputed that interpretation of tvj189's commnets, BTW.)

Here's what I said way back in post #19 of this thread:

There are bitter, negative, and cynical people everywhere, and if they're speaking on any topic at all, it comes through.

As far as Pittsburghers go, I wonder if some of what's percieved as negativity isn't simply an attitude of humility or self deprication, or at least stems from that attitude. Pomposity and braggadocio don't play well here; never have. The flip side of that coin is excessive humility. The civic pride that resides in the heart of the average Pittsburgher may never reveal itself until somebody from outside makes a criticsm...

Sorry, but it's my opinion that the criticism tvj189 expressed was bitter, negative and cynical about Pittsburgh. You're welcome to agree or disagree. Either way, I'm done responding to it, because I know when I'm being excessive, and I'm at the border line.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

This is right on. Every time people say, "oh, Pittsburghers are so negative" I think, "hey, I don't know anyone like that." But then it occurs to me that I have only a handful of friends and coworkers who are actually born-and-bred Pittsburghers. Everyone else is from somewhere else (even if they've lived here for 20 years) and chooses to stay here.

I have found the opposite. The people I've talked to who love Pittsburgh are born and bred Pittsburghers. It's those people who have lived in other places (other than little rinky-dink towns) who dislike this place. I do try to defend it's downtown area because I think it's very nice. But I have a hard time defending the housing, which in my opinion is expensive with some of the highest taxes I have ever experienced. The cheap stuff, well, by the time you brought it up to code it would cost you an arm and a leg. And in my opinion, just not worth it.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by alleghenyangel

Pittsburgh is still a sooty city. I used to have a white car. I had to wash it regularly because it would get a coating of this black dust after sitting outside for more than a day.

I don't think it's as sooty as it used to be. Maybe by the factories it still is. However, the homes that are still standing from way back when certainly need a new coat of paint! I hear mixed reviews about our air. I seem to think it's fine and clear, but some reports say it's not.

[highway29south]

Originally Posted by nuwaver88

Yes tjv189 is entitled to opinion. It is just that these opinions leave a lot of room for criticism. I detected in these opinions that every aspect of every other major city is better than Pittsburgh. Meanwhile, Pittsburgh's attributes should be downplayed. Who cares if Pittsburgh has a world class symphony? Orlando has a symphony too. A great view from Mt. Washington? That nothing like the Golden Gate. Great Universities? Boston is better. Culture? Ha Ha. Ever been to NYC?
Bad roads? Oh yeah, for sure. Narrow minded people? The worst in the nation. Anything to do? Nothing at all unless you like to drink. How about Oakland, you know, Phipps Conservatory, Nationality Rooms, Schenley Park, etc. etc. etc. etc.? Chicago is better.
I heard that South Side got it going on, true? Not really. In Miami's South Beach, there are waaay more pretentious clubs.
I can handle objective crticism. I cannot handle someone who makes Pittsburgh out to be the worst in every category that matters. That is where the defensiveness comes in.

I have a question. Why does his opinion have to be criticized? Therein lies the problem. No one is allowed to have an opinion and it is just an opinion. They have to back it up, then defend themselves against the horde that will come after him for that opinion. And you wonder why some people don't want to live here. I wouldn't after reading the Pittsburgh threads.

So he hates Pittsburgh. So do a lot of people. Does that change the fact that you like it? Does it change the fact that Pittsburgh offers a lot to many people? Does it change the world class symphony, the great sports teams, the view from Mt. Washington? I certainly hope not. So he thinks Pittsburgh has the worst of everything. Again....So what?

There are many people who criticize where I grew up, a small town in the south. I couldn't care less. It doesn't change how I feel about the place and it never would. That is their opinion and they are entitled to it. I may say I respectfully disagree, but I don't attack anyone or pick apart their criticism and demand they back it up. But in Pittsburgh, you'd never hear of someone agreeing to that kind of objective look at the town. "It's my town and you are going to like it, or else" is the attitude. No wonder people who move here want to leave.

[BrianTH]

Of course people are entitled to their opinions on things that are matters of taste. But lots of times people here don't just state subjective opinions, they also make descriptive claims, positive or negative. And there is no reason we shouldn't be able discuss whether or not those descriptive claims are accurate, or supplement those descriptions with additional facts, and so on.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by tjv189

Well I guess I can chip in with my reasons on why Pittsburgh sucks, like some others have already done. Note that this is my opinion, my outlook on the city:

-dirty, polluted - I think the litter is a problem. The downtown areas are nice, but the inner ring towns are very dirty. I'm not sure why people don't keep up their properties. This is a major problem in this city. Polluted? I suppose a one time is was, and by some accounts it still is. However, I don't see it. I think the air is fine, but I am not a scientist...
-rude, unfriendly, narrow-minded residents - I haven't run into this. But I do feel many people are quiet and don't go out of their way to say hello unless you give a LOUD and cheery hello first. The response we typically get is a muddled hello at best. Narrow minded? I don't think so, but definitely conservative. Rude? Definitely NOT on the highways! NICEST drivers ever!
-high taxes and corrupt people running the city (Ravenstahl, I'm looking right at you) OH yeah, taxes are WAY too high and the use of taxes is just plain dumb in my opinion. For instance, why does our road system suck so much? With today's technology we can certainly remedy much of it!
-extremely poor roadways See comment above
-lack of unique things to do (every big city has sports teams, people) I think there is plenty to do. It would be nice if the city used it's waterfront more effectively though. A man made beach would be nice also with more docks. But there is plenty to do, you just have to drive all over the place to get to it. But downtown has quite a bit to offer!
-terrible job market for everything except medical field and banking (not much opportunity) Yeah, this sucks. Not many LARGE corporations so it makes it difficult to stay here if you are an executive and need to change jobs. I believe this is because other than mom & pop joints, the business climate here is very poor.
-the city is dying, losing population very fast - Ah, it's not half as bad as it once was! But this goes back to my comment above in that theee are no big money jobs here.
-weather is extremely poor most of the year (either too hot/humid or way too cold/miserable) I disagree. The winters suck as far as sunny days, but the weather is not that bad here.
-living in the past - Yeah, this is a BIG problem!
-city has no identity other than a sports team (that is pretty lame if you ask me) Well, this goes back to not having any real business here. But at least our sports teams are respected! I just hate the fact that too many out of shape people wear the creepiest black and yellow clothing! I LOVE the blue that the Pens have been sporting (like they did yeas ago) it's a much happier and cleaner look!
-relatively high crime for a city of only 300,000 people The crime is bad, but I think it's confined to only certain areas isn't it?
-city is crowded for only having 300,000 people That's because of the roads. I can't believe that they haven't been reworked. the 79 proves that it can be done. Our side streets are some of the most dangerous in the nation! If your going to insist on making them rural and curvy, then at least make them with TWO lanes going each way with a shoulder on the side and bury the electric lines. Does anyone realize how many people are killed because of our roads????
-young population is moving away, so Pittsburgh can't keep any educated young people there Well, when a young person travels and finds out how much more convenient other cities are they tend to not come back. And unless you are working in education or medicine, there are few jobs to be had.

That's what comes to mind off the top of my head. Let's face it, Pittsburgh is a pretty sorry place to be guys. Anyone who thinks otherwise was either born there and lived there all their lives, or they just don't get around much. I used to travel quite a bit in a previous job I had, and I can say with all honesty, there are very few places in the US as depressing and lame as Pittsburgh is.

When a football team is the main attraction in your city, that should be a red flag that the place lacks anything fun or unique to do. That is lame if the 'Stillers' or 'Pens' is all Pittsburgh has to be proud of. I know I can't wait to get out of this area, like the many other young people I know. So with all the reasons I stated above of why Pittsburgh sucks, is it any surprise some people here might have a negative opinion of the city? I'm not trying to start a flame war here, I'm just stating why I think Pittsburgh sucks.

What makes me even more angry about Pittsburgh is the people who think it is the greatest place ever, when it is clearly not. If the people that live there would actually realize the city's faults, maybe they could work to make it better. But until then, it will remain the same.

Well you are certainly entitled to your opinion!
My thoughts on your comments above are in bold.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by ditchdigger

You have to wonder about somebody who joins a forum one day, and for their first post goes to the Pittsburgh section to post a message that says "Pittsburgh sucks".

I smell a troll.

Look, just because someone gives their OPINION and stated it as such does not mean this person is a troll. Geez, back off, comments like yours remind me why I hardly post here. Assuming someone is a troll just makes that person dislike this area more and does nothing in the way of discussing valuable ways to confront some of our cities problems. Pretending we have none will NOT make them go away.

[BrianTH]

By the way, here is a list of 311 metropolitan areas listed by violent crime rates (data compiled from 2006 Uniform Crime Reports, Federal Bureau of Investigation):

2006 Metro Area Violent Crime Rates

Pittsburgh is #189, between Rochester, NY and Raleigh, NC.

For comparison purposes, here are the rankings of other metro areas between 15 and 30 by size (Pittsburgh is #22):

Seattle #160
Minneapolis N/A
San Diego #130
St Louis #69
Tampa #37
Baltimore #23
Denver #152
Portland #212
Cincinnati #186
Sacramento #52
Cleveland #128
Orlando tied #13
San Antonio #111
Kansas City #62
Las Vegas #15

Holding aside Minneapolis (for which data was not available in this list), Pittsburgh was second only to Portland in this list for the lowest violent crime rate, although Cincinnati was a very close third.

Anyway, this is why I tend to claim Pittsburgh has a relatively low violent crime rate for a city of its size.

[fleetiebelle]

Look, just because someone gives their OPINION and stated it as such does not mean this person is a troll.

True, but coming into an established forum and having one's first post be judgemental and antagonistic isn't exactly in "plays well with others" territory.

I'm always wary of the people who post about how Pittsburgh is the most terrible city ever and anyone who thinks otherwise is brain dead. You can't be surprised when people want to discuss that.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Of course people are entitled to their opinions on things that are matters of taste. But lots of times people here don't just state subjective opinions, they also make descriptive claims, positive or negative. And there is no reason we shouldn't be able discuss whether or not those descriptive claims are accurate, or supplement those descriptions with additional facts, and so on.

Perhaps they just aren't very good at HOW they write their opinions. I know my comments are misconstrued plenty of times. I'm a terrible typist, a worse speller and I have lousy grammar. Not to mention my new keyboard apparently thinks not having the "R" show up in many of my words is funny.
I too have found this particular forum an unpleasant experience on most occasions. Thankfully, the representation of posters on here are not indicative of the people in Pittsburgh. You're not too bad Brian, but I've had to take many steps back from threads I would have loved to have participated in but the nastiness of the majority of posters on here make me keep my opinions to myself. It's basically the same 10 or 15 Pittsburgh cheerleaders who have dominated this forum over the past five years and not in a good way..... Think of all the progress that may have occurred if people were allowed to express dissatisfaction in areas that are constantly ignored here in this city that have not allowed for Pittsburgh to modernize quicker. Can you imagine how hard a progressive politician has to fight for change here?
Repeat after me: Change is good. Progress means moving forward.