Pittsburgh has an inferiority complex (Rochester, Denver: violent crime, statistics, move)

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by ctoocheck

Second, by spending time outside Pgh, I mean LIVING elsewhere, not just spending a few weeks away. Perhaps if you spend a year or two somewhere else, you might find these places you find desirable to not be all they're cracked up to be. But this is, of course, all opinion and not objectifiable. I've lived in Europe, the middle east, three states in the south, three states in the southwest, the northwest, Toronto, and now I'm on my way to China for 6 months. I think I have a fairly good idea of what living in other areas are like enough to compare Pittsburgh to other places fairly. I'm in my 50's and I have lived in each of those areas for years at a time.

I hope my opinion is at least considered.

[BrianTH]

I think the primary value in this forum comes from sharing information, and I think it works pretty well to that end.

To the extent the miscellaneous opinion and policy debates are not always conducted in an appropriate manner, I think there is plenty of blame to go around (including myself). We could all stand to do a better job being less antagonistic and more open-minded, better at distinguishing what is a matter of taste and what is a matter of fact, editing ourselves to keep discussions productive, and so on.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by highway29south

So true. I grew up out of state and in the time I've lived in Pittsburgh, I've known only a handful of people who moved here from out of state. And they wanted to move back out. Most people move into Pittsburgh from bordering counties or mid-PA.

I don't dare say to people around me that I would prefer living elsewhere. Otherwise, I'll get "the stare" and the comment, "why in the world don't you like Pittsburgh?" Like I'm insane or something

People here have little to no experience living elsewhere. Out of the 20 or so people I know personally and see on a day to day basis, none of them have ever lived out of state. And believe me, I've asked. I get lonely here being the only person who knows what it is like outside the "Pittsburgh Bubble".

I agree wholeheartedly. I am from another state and have lived in SO many other places. The only other place I did not enjoy living in was Virginia. My friends here who are NOT from the area are not crazy about it mainly for the same reasons I do not like it. I do NOT know ONE person who has moved here from another area that wants to stay. (Okay, I do, they were from a tiny little town in West Virginia.)
The others that are from here that do not like it are PILOTS! I think that if more people from here could afford to move, they probably would. However, if you have family here, or grew up here, you will undoubtedly feel the pull to stay. Family ties can have a very strong hold on you and can be a major reason why a person either loves it or hates it here. If you grew up here and are a bit older, you probably don't want to move. But if you are younger and have the opportunity to travel to other locales you probably wouldn't want to move back here.
Downtown is nice, but I don't really like the rest of Pittsburgh. Sorry.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Katiana,

To clarify one point, the "here" in the first part of what you quoted was a reference to this board (specifically it was a reference back to my prior post, in which I stated "There are quite a few regulars on this board who did not grow up in the area and/or have lived elsewhere for an extended period."). I agree the Pittsburgh region itself currently has relatively few people from outside the nearby area (in fact, I suspect in your data, a high portion of those people from outside Allegheny County but inside PA actually came from Western PA specifically).

Edit: By the way, it seems to me you have presented rather easily refuted versions of some of the points you are attributing to other people in these conversations. For example, it is true that Pittsburgh is not the only city in the United States with a significant cultural legacy, but on the other hand I would suggest the stronger version of that point is that it has a relatively high density of cultural amenities for a city of its current size. The same would apply to the role of universities in the city: again it is far from the only major city in the United States with a lot of universities, but I think it is also true that the universities play a relatively large role for a city of its size (e.g., as I recall among the Top 40 cities, only Providence ranks higher in terms of percentage of college and graduate students). And so on.

No offense Brian, but you need to live out west for a bit before you start making such statements. You're an intelligent man, but your lack of experience is beginning to show. Katiana is dead on with her statements.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by JoeLeaphorn

You are joking, right. Boston is a big town that happens to have a lot of Universities. It also has shipping, fishing, technology, insurance and manufacturing. (I've lived and worked, there).

San Jose-Santa Clara-Palo Alto is also known as the Silicon Valley. You want to tell me that the Silicon Valley is a "college town"? (I've lived there, as well).

Raleigh-Durham has Research Triangle Park which is Silicon Valley, East.

San Diego has the Naval Air Base and Shipyards as well as tourism, farming, manufacturing and high technology.

Columbus, Ohio is going through the same problems as much of the Midwest (and Pittsburgh). Sure, OSU is big, but it isn't enough to keep downtown Columbus alive at night (I grew up there).

Providence is the capitol of Rhode Island.

None of the cities that you mention have economies based solely upon higher education (that includes Manchester, Melbourne or Bologna, all of which I have visited.

In Pittsburgh, the largest employers are education and government. Not a recipe for long term economic success (especially given the size of the population).

THANK YOU. This is why I made the comment about Brian not being very experienced. With the exception of Melbourne, I too have been to all of the above mentioned. Your answer is 100% correct.

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by highway29south

Yes, but again, that is tjv189's opinion. And I can bet you that Pittsburghers would not only reject him, but fight tooth and nail against him for that opinion. Maybe he just thinks Pittsburgh sucks. So what? The defensiveness in this town is amazing. And that is why Pittsburgh remains so closed off to outsiders. No other opinions are welcome.

excellent point! Reps for you!

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Hotlanta2

No offense Brian, but you need to live out west for a bit before you start making such statements. You're an intelligent man, but your lack of experience is beginning to show.

I am quite familiar with many western locales. My mother was born in the Bay Area and now lives there again, my brother now lives in Portland, and my sister lives in the Denver. I've spent a lot of time in all those places, and I know that they are all great areas with lots of appeal.

Katiana is dead on with her statements.

In the passage you quoted, I didn't actually say she was wrong. What I noted is that she was refuting easily-refuted versions of the points in question, but there were different versions of those points which are not so easily refuted. And based on my experience with other cities, including in the west, I would stand by the versions of those points I presented.

Now if you have a substantive response to what I claimed, that is fine. But note you didn't provide a substantive response: you just cited what you perceive to be my lack of experience (without actually knowing much about me).

So with all due respect, I think you should reflect on whether if you truly want good discussions around here, it is wise to simply assume that those who disagree with you must be ignorant. You don't really know enough about the people here to make such a judgment, and in any event such tactics are unlikely to be persuasive. So, I would suggest that if you do indeed have relevant experiences to share, you draw on them to provide substantive contributions to these discussions.

[highway29south]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think the primary value in this forum comes from sharing information, and I think it works pretty well to that end.

To the extent the miscellaneous opinion and policy debates are not always conducted in an appropriate manner, I think there is plenty of blame to go around (including myself). We could all stand to do a better job being less antagonistic and more open-minded, better at distinguishing what is a matter of taste and what is a matter of fact, editing ourselves to keep discussions productive, and so on.

I agree very much. If people from Pittsburgh were more open minded and willing to express their disagreement with the facts in a more diplomatic manner, we may be able to progress instead of standing still. That of course doesn't mean you have to agree with criticism, just approach it differently. Pittsburgh is not going to suddenly become a different place because a few people don't like it.

As for someone who posts something like "Pittsburgh Sucks", well, that is not very nice but then again, who hasn't wanted to blow off steam a bit about this place, even if you are native here? Or maybe the poster has had very bad experiences here. Pittsburgh has been a in bubble for a very long time. Change is desparately needed.

[highway29south]

Originally Posted by Hotlanta2

I agree wholeheartedly. I am from another state and have lived in SO many other places. The only other place I did not enjoy living in was Virginia. My friends here who are NOT from the area are not crazy about it mainly for the same reasons I do not like it. I do NOT know ONE person who has moved here from another area that wants to stay. (Okay, I do, they were from a tiny little town in West Virginia.)
The others that are from here that do not like it are PILOTS! I think that if more people from here could afford to move, they probably would. However, if you have family here, or grew up here, you will undoubtedly feel the pull to stay. Family ties can have a very strong hold on you and can be a major reason why a person either loves it or hates it here. If you grew up here and are a bit older, you probably don't want to move. But if you are younger and have the opportunity to travel to other locales you probably wouldn't want to move back here.
Downtown is nice, but I don't really like the rest of Pittsburgh. Sorry.

Right on! That's been my experience since I've moved here. If we could find jobs in another area, we would move too. I've never felt like I've fit in here, even after 20+ years.

But Pittsburgh could change if people here were willing to accept different points of view, listen to some of the criticism and take action. With all of the wonderful things Pittsburgh has to offer, it could become a shining star to everyone instead of just natives!

[Hotlanta2]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I am quite familiar with many western locales. My mother was born in the Bay Area and now lives there again, my brother now lives in Portland, and my sister lives in the Denver. I've spent a lot of time in all those places, and I know that they are all great areas with lots of appeal..

But you have never lived there. There in that lies the problem.