Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Right, keeping traffic on the perimeter is better than bisecting the square. Maybe as the Downtown population increases and more development occurs in MS itself (like the hotel) it will be closed off altogether. Maybe it will happen within 2-3 years.
the hotel will make the pedestrian st impossible and perhaps is going to ise market sq for its traffic but im not positive. yes i think increasing population and the addition of places like il pizz go a long way. im curious what will clme of the ppg place or if it will be a plug in chain. one or two more solid places and i think the square will be there. id like to see moes expand their building as well. perhaps apartments upstairs.
I have long advocated that Forbes from Wood to Stanwix become a ped zone with a lead up on both sides to MSQ. I would at least transform the sidewalks so that they're one with the street kill the on street parking in this area plant some trees and new lighting. I would like to see the CVS converted to a full time Grocery store that on the Forbes side spills right out into the street with a farmers market or Cafe area that mixes with Ped Traffic like the restaurants in MSQ.
One thing that pisses me off about Pittsburgh leadership, is they still don't get it when it comes to prioritizing bringing the masses downtown and this ideology that "Parking" is key....when its not, its time to stop this catering to the Car Culture. If its the suburbanites that you want to make happy, then what you do is provide more Public Transit (Express) from Suburban park n' rides where there's plenty of room to develop more and more FREE Parking and shuttle the people into the city to spend the day. Enhanced Public Transit can bring 10x the number of people into the city center than Car traffic can. For those that still insist on Driving all the way into the city well then their lazy ass needs to pay for parking at a Garage and walk to where ever their feet take'em. Tired of Pittsburgh catering to this Car Culture, no development especially downtown needs to be centered on "Accessibility" of Parking.
Last edited by Blackbeauty212; 04-08-2013 at 09:05 AM..
Yeah, chasing after suburbanites is a fool's game insofar as Downtown dining and retail are concerned. An exception can be made for unique draws, like Heinz Hall or the Benedum Center, but for targeting mid-level everyday sort of activities average people do it's pointless. I've lived in a few different suburban areas here and not once did I ever consider going Downtown to do something non-theater or business related, because what I wanted was already closer to home and more convenient, and a license to park anywhere I wanted for free Downtown wouldn't have changed that.
Heck, I live just a few minutes from Downtown now and still have very little interest in going there recreationally unless it is a special event. Getting people to actually live there is the key, which I guess was part of the original point of this thread.
Blackbeauty, I agree that construction can be done to maintain vehicular access to certain points around market square while creating a pedestrian friendly zone. If demand continues to increase we'll see what happens.
Yeah, chasing after suburbanites is a fool's game insofar as Downtown dining and retail are concerned.
In SF the downtown is packed most of the time. Parking is expensive and it's a nightmare. People drive, take MUNI, BART, CalTrain, AC Transit, Marin Transit, Ferries... to get there. Very, very little new parking is ever built because of policy and the space that is available is more valuable as retail/office space. I agree that express busses from suburban park & ride lots is the way to go. When I lived in the 'burbs outside of SF and had to go to downtown SF for shopping, especially with my kids, I would drive and pay for parking because I wanted to have the car for our purchases, and the cost of public transit for three people round trip was equal to or more than the cost of parking. My point is that if there's something that suburbanites want to see or do in the downtown, they will pay to get there to do it. Making the downtown like a suburban mall defeats the purpose. Why would suburbanites spend money to go miles away to do something they already can do closer to home? People want a downtown experience that isn't like a mall. Hopefully Pittsburgh planners and policy makers will move in the right direction.
In SF the downtown is packed most of the time. Parking is expensive and it's a nightmare. People drive, take MUNI, BART, CalTrain, AC Transit, Marin Transit, Ferries... to get there. Very, very little new parking is ever built because of policy and the space that is available is more valuable as retail/office space. I agree that express busses from suburban park & ride lots is the way to go. When I lived in the 'burbs outside of SF and had to go to downtown SF for shopping, especially with my kids, I would drive and pay for parking because I wanted to have the car for our purchases, and the cost of public transit for three people round trip was equal to or more than the cost of parking. My point is that if there's something that suburbanites want to see or do in the downtown, they will pay to get there to do it. Making the downtown like a suburban mall defeats the purpose. Why would suburbanites spend money to go miles away to do something they already can do closer to home? People want a downtown experience that isn't like a mall. Hopefully Pittsburgh planners and policy makers will move in the right direction.
I agree, I have always said the way to get people downtown is to have an experience they can't get in the Burbs or in even in Pittsburgh's case its neighborhoods.
I would develop massive Park n Rides (i.e. South Hills Village) in
North: (Convert the HOV into a 2 lane Busway for Bi-Directional Express)
Warrendale
Ross Twp
Northeast:
Harmarville
East:
Monroeville
Mckeesport
Swissvale/Braddock
Wilkinsburg (add decks to existing Park N Ride)
West:
Carnegie (again add decks to existing)
Bridgeville
Moon (adding decks to existing)
South:
Is already served by an ample Park n Ride network, enhanced service is needed however.
Yeah, chasing after suburbanites is a fool's game insofar as Downtown dining and retail are concerned. An exception can be made for unique draws, like Heinz Hall or the Benedum Center, but for targeting mid-level everyday sort of activities average people do it's pointless.
I agree with this, but I swear this desire for so much parking in the middle of the city is insane, and I can't believe how much effort is about to be put into parking structures near Market Square and at the old Saks site in the coming years.
This need for parking must be ingrained into native Pittsburghers somehow. When the Mon Wharf is closed, it's like the top story on the news. But this one really took the cake for me when I read it:
Best quote from this article in yesterday's Post-Gazette was the writer listed the following as a Pro for driving yourself to NYC, highlighted in red by me:
"By car
Pros: For people who like to make their own schedules, this may be the best method of transportation. You can stop when and where you want, stretch out with your shoes off and listen to your own music. Once you get onto Interstate 80, it's pretty much clear sailing. And while getting into the city via the George Washington Bridge or Lincoln or Holland tunnels ($13 toll) can be a nightmare, it often isn't. An added bonus: You'll have a car to get around city instead of paying for taxis or the subway, and it won't even cost you if you street park on the Upper West Side for free, and take the subway to your hotel; just remember you might have to move your car for street cleaning."
Is this guy out of his freaking mind or are Pittsburghers really that eager to avoid using public transportation that they think it would be a good idea to take your car, park it in Manhattan, and then drive from place to place??? Seriously, what the hell???
EDIT: Not only that, but I think taking I-80 is terrible advice as well when the turnpike to 81 to 78 is definitely faster. And also, if you're taking your own car, there are plenty of places with free street parking besides the Upper West Side.
Is this guy out of his freaking mind or are Pittsburghers really that eager to avoid using public transportation that they think it would be a good idea to take your car, park it in Manhattan, and then drive from place to place??? Seriously, what the hell???
OMG, that is insane! Why would you encourage people to drive in a place where public transit and cabs are so much easier and in the end, cheaper, because you will get a ticket or towed.
The only people I have ever met who either don't know how to drive or didn't learn to drive until adulthood are people who grew up in New York or San Francisco. It's too difficult, too expensive, and many families don't even own cars. I didn't learn to drive until I was 25 and only then because my job required me to train clients in the northern half of the state. I have another friend who didn't learn to drive until she was 40. And I know others.
OMG, that is insane! Why would you encourage people to drive in a place where public transit and cabs are so much easier and in the end, cheaper, because you will get a ticket or towed.
The only people I have ever met who either don't know how to drive or didn't learn to drive until adulthood are people who grew up in New York or San Francisco. It's too difficult, too expensive, and many families don't even own cars. I didn't learn to drive until I was 25 and only then because my job required me to train clients in the northern half of the state. I have another friend who didn't learn to drive until she was 40. And I know others.
although on a smaller scale no doubt, there are people in philly like that and probably chicago.
OMG, that is insane! Why would you encourage people to drive in a place where public transit and cabs are so much easier and in the end, cheaper, because you will get a ticket or towed.
The only people I have ever met who either don't know how to drive or didn't learn to drive until adulthood are people who grew up in New York or San Francisco. It's too difficult, too expensive, and many families don't even own cars. I didn't learn to drive until I was 25 and only then because my job required me to train clients in the northern half of the state. I have another friend who didn't learn to drive until she was 40. And I know others.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman
although on a smaller scale no doubt, there are people in philly like that and probably chicago.
Only way I could justify using a car to get around the City, is if you plan on doing a lot of shopping. I always tell me Philly friends or relatives from the Burgh to bring a car if you want to do tons of shopping. I'm not lugging 3K worth of goods around on the Subway.
For those of you advocating for the mass elimination of on-street parking spaces, the transformation of huge swaths of streets Downtown to pedestrian-only accessibility, and the demise of the "evil car culture" can I ask where those of us who work for UPS, FedEx, Wheel Deliver, pizzerias, Meals Delivered, Edible Arrangements, florists, the U.S.P.S., etc. are all supposed to park to make deliveries to the growing population in the heart of our city? Parking enforcement officials already chase us around with a "not my problem" attitude when we have difficulty securing legal on-street spaces, and any prospect of that worsening is mind-numbing. This isn't Manhattan where everyone can just hop on a bicycle and deliver everything. Tell me how I'm supposed to deliver food from a Squirrel Hill restaurant to someone living on/around Market Square if you all want so much of Downtown to be car-free? Should we just ban Downtown dwellers from getting anything delivered---be it food, items from Amazon, fruit baskets, etc.?
The only other option would be for the city's parking enforcement officials to become more relaxed for delivery-related vehicles.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
