Manchester's future? (area, distance, Mexican)

[barneyg]

Originally Posted by Drover

I'm sorry to jump on your case specifically, but I'm getting sick of hearing "there is ________ in any neighborhood" (insert negative attribute here) as if that eliminates any quantitative and qualitative differences between neighborhoods. That's sloppy and lazy reasoning. And why do you get to generalize your positive experiences across the whole neighborhood while others are not permitted to generalize their negative experiences across a whole neighborhood? What makes your experience so much more genuine and accurate than someone else's?

I saw northside02's reply as a reply to previous anecdotal evidence as posted by Hopes and others about Manchester. I agree that any type of generalization based on small samples is unwelcome. However there are _truly_ positives and negatives in any neighborhood, neither of which can be completely portrayed by first-hand evidence such as Hopes's or northside02's. Should we all just stop posting about our own experiences? To me this need of some people to come and say how they love/hate a neighborhood speaks to the limitations of crime rates, school quality, median household income, and similar statistics that _are_ generalizations as well.

[Drover]

Well, absent sound data on a given neighborhood, anecdotes (and collections thereof) are the best we can rely on. Anecdotes also give a "human" feel to a neighborhood that you can't get with objective statistics. I don't object to anecdotes, though they should be supplemented with factual data when they are available. I presume we're all bright enough not to rely on one person's anecdotes alone. The more familiar one is with a particular area, the more valuable their anecdotal musings can be. Hopes didn't just drive through Manchester a couple of times; she actually lived there for years. What's more, if you read what she's written about Manchester, you'll find that she have widely varying experiences, not just "bad" ones. Mostly what I object to is the proposition that her anecdotes are "false" or less valuable or more stereotypical because they don't comport with northside02's anecdotal experiences. If he had just said "my experiences are different, here's what they are" instead of implying that his (her?) version is more correct, I wouldn't have said anything about that.

But I'm still tired of people saying "any neighborhood/area/city/whatever is going to have X problem" as if the frequency of incident "X" has no bearing whatsoever on the quality of life in one neighborhood versus the next. Obviously it does or so many people wouldn't feel the need to so glibly explain it away.

[Herodotus]

I'm very familiar with the area. Prior to the early 90's there were 3 or 4 small concrete apartment blocks located in Manchester that were absolute cesspools that polluted the entire neighborhood. The replacement of these with new rowhouses improved the area quite a bit. However, the sections of the neighborhood north of Liverpool, are in very bad shape, and act as a sore on the rest of the area. It appears, that the War Streets is approaching a tipping point where it will soon revert back to something approaching what it was prior to 1920, (a middle to upper middle class area). The big questions I have would be whether or not the renewal will spread to Brighton Road or not. There are quite a few wrecks on Brighton, but also some very impressive rowhouses that could be showplaces if they were restored. Brighton Road may be the key, because if the blight is removed from Brighton Road, Brighton Place will likely follow. This would remove most of the blight east of the train tracks. You would then have 5 problem areas remaining between Chateau, and 279. Those would be:
The northern half of Manchester.
East Ohio Street.
The area immediately west of AHG
The inverted T where Federal meets North (Redevelopment of this area will soon be under way)
The dreadful California-Kirkbride area.

East Ohio is probably the least worrisome of these, as it will go whatever way the surrounding neighborhoods go. This is true of the less troublesome Western Avenue strip as well.

Redevelopment of the North/Federal corridor was held up for years by the Garden smut house, but it finally appears to be on a fast track. The momentum from this is going to help speed up the rebirth of the War Streets. With Federal and North cleaned up, the area around Sandusky should improve as well. The narrow streets, and old stoop fron houses should make for a very charming enclave once it is cleaned up.

That leaves the two most daunting problems. Manchester north of Liverpool, and adjacent Cal-Kirkbride. C-K is in absolute ruins. The fire a few years back, that destroyed a ridiculously awesome group of rowhouses across from the post office pretty much ended any real hope of restoration here. The city needs to move to raze all of the shells and wrecks in this small area. Clean the lots, and cut the heavy brush that has taken over. There are a few dozen houses in decent shape here that should be left to anchor a new community. That would leave only the blighted parts of Manchester. With all of the surrounding blight removed, investment would soon transform this area as well. The empty buildings facing the "Chinese Wall" of Rt 65, should be razed (unless some investors want to gamble on bringing them back to life).

I realize that there is concern about people being priced out, but cheap housing abounds nearby. The government could protect current homeowners by giving tax breaks to people who are resident homeowners. Homeowners also have the option of cashing in when the value of their property jumps.

This area should be a showplace for Pittsburgh, the way Beacon Hill and Society Hill are for Boston and Philly.

[TRO Z]

Herodotus, You definetly painted an accurate portrait....I couldn't agree with you more, that Manchester and The War Streets should be and hopefully will become a showplace....I have a feeling it will take a few years for those areas to revitalize yet, Pittsburgh is very slow when it comes to urban growth..

Chateau St..and most of northern manchester...what a train wreck...Most of the frame houses are going to be torn down, however the brick buildings will stay and the URA is offering attractive financing for anyone interested...At this point, I dont recommend that anyone buys north of Pennsylvania...

I am very curious to see how things go with the federal corridor, because that place is not exactly a safe haven...Way to many problems from Perry Hilltop spill their way down to federal..Time will tell...

C-K is so bad, the city is offering 10 years tax free...and the URA is giving you the property damn near...No takers as of yet...And my take is this, when some of the really bad element in manchester gets pushed out...Thats where they'll go....

[PPG]

my take is this, when some of the really bad element in manchester gets pushed out...Thats where they'll go..

I really don't see that happening for the bad element in manchester a part of a fueding gang between MC and CK. They would never set foot in CK unless it's to shot someone or if the gang took over that area. Also fyi CK means "Crip Killer". You will see it on the walls everywhere if you drive around Manchester.

On a related note, I don't think Pittsburgh is as easy to gentrify as New York or Chicago. I think it would be hard to do in Philly also.

[TRO Z]

I was unaware about the MC-CK gang thing...Thanks for the info...

I can agree that Pittsburgh's gentrification will certainly take longer than larger cities, but that's apples and oranges...Pittsburgh is a low tier 2 or high tier 3 city at best...

I expect Manchester's future to be 5 to 7 years away...Simply because the slum and blight is too extensive to be overcome in under 5 yrs...

The outside sources for free money or 3% interest rates (not to mention 5 to 10 year tax abatements) are so attractive in manchester, investors are waiting in the wings..Soon as they break ground on the slots parlor (casino) if you can call it that...All the money will start flowing----due to political red tape though, it takes about a year for that faucet to run......Then you'll see some real changes in manchester...

[PPG]

Originally Posted by TRO Z

I was unaware about the MC-CK gang thing...Thanks for the info...

I can agree that Pittsburgh's gentrification will certainly take longer than larger cities, but that's apples and oranges...Pittsburgh is a low tier 2 or high tier 3 city at best...

.Simply because the slum and blight is too extensive to be overcome in under 5 yrs...

The outside sources for free money or 3% interest rates (not to mention 5 to 10 year tax abatements) are so attractive in manchester, investors are waiting in the wings..Soon as they break ground on the slots parlor (casino) if you can call it that...All the money will start flowing----due to political red tape though, it takes about a year for that faucet to run......Then you'll see some real changes in manchester...

I'm sure they said that 5-7 years ago.

Excuse me for seeming negative but what is the model neighborhood for gentrification in Pittsburgh? I sure hope it's not the mexican war streets, a place where gays and a certain type of white people live looking over their shoulders who have to be inside by 7:00 because of the homeless riff-raff roaming the streets.

I really don't understand your vague statements about how real changes in manchester are coming soon. What kind of changes are we talking about? It seems to me that these "investors" want to move everybody out of manchester so they can move rich people and make tons of money off of them. These people seem to be all about money and NOT about making a neighborhood better. I detest this attitude. I don't envy these people for the career path they have chosen. I myself would rather gamble away my money(or someone elses) in an actual casino than to try displace poor blacks for a profit. You seem to think that poor blacks are ready to be forced out to another neighborhood when it's the exact opposite. In my opinion, gentrifying a Pittsburgh black neighborhood is almost like gentrifying the east side of detroit. You are only going to get so far, and it will never turn out the way you've imagined it. History tells us that the only way to displace poor blacks in Pittsburgh is to bulldoze the entire neighborhood (lower hill). It doesn't matter how many casinos they build.

[TRO Z]

PPG--Alot of your questions here could be answered, if you would come to the meetings at the Manchester Citizens Corp...My previous invitation to you is still open...

But to answer some of your concerns/comments...

No real development or money has gone into manchester for A LONG TIME, I dont know anyone who said 5 or 10 years ago that manchester was going to rebound...

The revital of Manchester is just beginning now, the ink is barely dry...

We talked off line about Manchester only having 2,500 people and I estimated maybe 100 people doing dirt, you claimed more---but with that said, thats what everyone is trying to eliminate in Manchester.. Also to claim the POOR BLACKS are going to get pushed out is non-sense..No one is ever going to get pushed out, and they surely won't want to leave after all the slums get rehabbed or torn down, and the police get rid of the open drug trafficing

I wish had the crystal ball to tell you what changes will work and what will not...But here's what I can guarantee...All ready in play, is over 12 million in re-development in the next 24 months ..At least 2 city police officers have committed to moving into the neighborhood already..URA and City Of Pittsburgh...The breaks they are offering INCREDIBLE...The support of community members is over welming, long over due is the exact term I hear alot...

To sit back and claim that all the investors are just out to make a buck, I have to take that personally...We have a huge vested interest in the war streets and soon to be Manchester...I am personally committed to the changes that are going to occur, committed to the point that I have sold my home in Mt. Lebo and moving to W. North Ave in MANCHESTER, in under 90 days...A doctor friend of mine Larry Gipson has just purchased a home also on w north ave...My brother is moving here from philly and will be acquiring a home on sheffield..

I am not watching and hoping from the sidelines on this revital...There's alot of committed people to making Manchester, a great place to live ONCE AGAIN...Is it going to take 5 yrs, 10yrs---who knows

[PPG]

when some of the really bad element in manchester gets pushed out

Your next post:

Also to claim the POOR BLACKS are going to get pushed out is non-sense..No one is ever going to get pushed out,

Also:

Soon as they break ground on the slots parlor (casino) if you can call it that...All the money will start flowing-

Your next post:

To sit back and claim that all the investors are just out to make a buck, I have to take that personally...We have a huge vested interest in the war streets and soon to be Manchester

Doesn't sound like the words of a trustworthy person.?

You seem to think that there's criminals on one side and good people on the other side and the criminals will leave and the good people will stay. All of these criminals are family members of the good people. If the good stay, so will the criminals. Put 20 in jail 20 more will be out from years ago and so on and so on... As we speak they are building more section 8 housing. Yep, poor blacks. How are you going to get rid of the section 8 (the bad element)? Who is going to want to live by these people? Executives? Doctors?
As far as the meetings, I have an uncle on the board and he is helping lead this, to the dismay of his family, but he is a politician so what do you expect.
And yes, they did say it would be 5 or so years from now 5-10 years ago.
I guess the almighty casino will solve all of the city's/states problems though. Don't hold your breath.

[TRO Z]

PPG-- Your 100% right on Manchester, what are we all thinking....This is a crime ridden area full of poor black people with Pennrose built homes strategically positioned in it..

I agree lets displace all of them but dont bring in , lets see what was your exact quote...."gays and a certain type of white people"...

In that case I think we should do one of two items,

1) Let's leave Manchester just the way it is, the people there have lived with decay and poverty most of their lives...The bullet wounds will heal themselves, just put a band-aid on it..

2) Let's pull out the bulldozers and destroy what is probably the best housing stock in the city..All those Italiante design homes and architecture, tear em down...What city needs it's Victorian Era homes....We can certainly put alot of McMansions up there..

This is like DeJa Vu for me...Had these same type of comments coming at us 4 years ago when we came to town and helped with the war streets...And let me tell you, everything bad you can think of, about the war streets..We agree...Homeless shelter,Perry Hilltop,no business district,federal street,terrible parking,little to no mixed use development, etc...We know..

Manchester should become a true showplace of homes in Pittsburgh....It has EXCELLENT POTENTIAL, and far more to offer than the War Streets, as far as future development is concerned..

There is a 3rd option, How could I forget...Lets gentrify the entire area so it can be like one of Pittsburgh Suburbs....Let's make it so there's, little to no black people around.......Diversity--who needs that......

If your uncle truly is one of the board members, he has been asking for help for YEARS and now there's many people ready to step up and help them...I'm sure he would be very proud to know, that your helping to fight AGAINST his cause..