Manchester's future? (Pittsburgh, York, Upper St. Clair: section 8, for sale, real estate)

[clawhammerist]

Hello all,

I've greatly enjoyed browsing the posts on this forum for some time now; what a valuable resource it is! Thanks for all your contributions.

I'm writing to see what people feel the future holds for the Manchester neighborhood of Pittsburgh. This area really intrigues me, in spite of its having been "the hood" for so long, as other posters have noted. Its housing stock is exceptional, and it pleases me to see that some restoration work has taken place there.

In the next few years (working on the three- to five-year plan at this point...), I hope to relocate to Pittsburgh for a variety of reasons, and at that time, would be interested in buying a rowhouse there, either already restored (if affordable) or "structurally sound" but in need of work. I love the look and feel of the Mexican War Streets, but prices on restored houses have been going up-up-up in the most appealing section, IMHO, of that district (primarily the few blocks between North, Taylor, Palo Alto, and Buena Vista), which will surely render it unaffordable to me...and there seem to be few unrestored (and, in turn, potentially affordable) places left in that particular section. Manchester, on the other hand, has plenty of rowhouses yet to be restored, and even those that have already been worked on are not--yet--priced as high as their counterparts in the War Streets.

Given the success that restoration in the War Streets has had, plus the proximity of gorgeous but moneyed Beech Avenue (not to mention the easy access to downtown as well as the development on the North Shore), do people feel that it is only a matter of time before sections of Manchester go the same way? Or, could it be that the neighborhood is farther "gone" than those others ever were, and in need of more help than is likely to arrive anytime soon before home prices head north? I'd love to hear any and all analyses.

I realize that Manchester is currently a pretty scary place, by and large, as far as the general public might be concerned. However, there are some sections that appear safe-ish to me even now...certain blocks of Liverpool, Sheffield, and North come to mind. Is that the case, or are appearances deceiving and these streets are no safer than anyplace else in the neighborhood? For what it's worth, I'm comfortable with being an "urban pioneer" to a certain extent...especially in an area which has housing stock as good as or better than that in the War Streets but at much lower prices; in other words, if Manchester didn't have this going for it, I would look elsewhere.

To wrap up my perhaps unfocused ramblings...what say you about any of this? How long, if ever, before Manchester becomes the next lovely but unaffordable War Streets? Which streets/areas are in the best/worst shape at this point? If I were looking to move ASAP, would I be out of my mind, and if not, where would you recommend I "light" given the current state and safety of the neighborhood?

Any Manchester-related tangents are also welcomed. I am really fascinated by the area, and would love to hear anything people have to say about it.

[TRO Z]

N.Side has always been a tough place to figure out, and Manchester is another one of those difficult to define areas...Absolutely beautiful Brownstones, but you have to have bars on your windows to feel safe....

We have just picked up two properties on the outskirts of the Mexican War streets...Jacksonia..less than desirable street right now...We have plans to keep them rented for now..Until the time comes to rehab 100% and let it join the rest of the War Streets in what can only be called---never mind...

But back to Manchester, investors are buying in manchester as I sit here typing....Why...Because the casino will be in the back yard...

What will the casino bring??? EMPLOYEES...

And that my friend will bring money to investors, who will rent these homes to employees of the casino at pretty nice prices..Or so they hope...

If your a gambling man, buy now in Manchester...Unfortunetly not alot for sale over there now...The sharks have been swimming in those waters for the last 12 months..

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by clawhammerist

I realize that Manchester is currently a pretty scary place, by and large, as far as the general public might be concerned. However, there are some sections that appear safe-ish to me even now...certain blocks of Liverpool, Sheffield, and North come to mind. Is that the case, or are appearances deceiving and these streets are no safer than anyplace else in the neighborhood?

When I was a college student in the early 80s, I rented in Manchester with my husband. You're instinct about Liverpool Street is accurate. I lived on Liverpool Street, and it was a wonderful experience. The neighbors invited us to parties and sent us baked goods. But the safety of the neighborhood changes block by block. After a few months, we needed more space and we moved to a larger place around the corner---literally just about 1-1/2 blocks away---and our cars were chased down and the windows in our family room were shot out. It's amazing what a difference a couple of blocks can make.

The local civic group has been trying to revitalize Manchester since before the 80s. The buildings that have been renovated are absolutely stunning. It's top quality housing inside and dangerous streets on the outside. Someday Manchester is BOUND to become desirable. But realize this could be a long term investment because there are people who renovated 30 years ago and they're still waiting for the big payoff.

TRO Z has a point about the casino. I just wonder if it's more likely that the properties will end up being used for new development instead of revitalization. Although Manchester is currently an undesirable place, it would be a shame to see it disappear. There's some rich history there and some beautiful architecture.

I don't see many people moving into the area to live near the casinos in the near future. My girlfriend landed a job at the casino and she still plans on living in Upper St. Clair. Keep in mind that there are people in the neighborhood who are determined to stop change. They'll chase and intimidate anyone who is different. They shoot out windows of buildings when someone they want to drive away lives in it. It's not an area for the timid to live. As a result, it's unlikely that there is going to be a huge influx of casino employees in the near future. But over the long term, that's a definite possibility.

pimpsgangtasandhustlas grew up in Manchester. He'll be more than happy to provide you with an insider's perspective. Send him a PM.

[kettlepot]

Like Clawhammer, I love the older architecture and would love to see older neighborhoods with a good stock of buildings be brought back to their former glory. I've thought of moving to Pittsburgh, and even considered the "Urban Pioneer" route, though in the end I've spent much more time learning about Bellevue, Avalon, and Ben Avon. I've also wondered about Brighton Heights which I believe is just north of Manchester along the Ohio River.

But as Claw said the prices in Manchester are just amazingly low to an outsiders eyes. And you can see the inherent beauty in many of the buildings.

So, can you be a bit more direct, and specify who it is that the locals will try to drive out? Why? And for the benefit of an outsider, could you describe the locals and their attitudes?

[Hopes]

It's racially driven. But it's not the entire population in the neighborhood. The families and working people of the neighborhood see new people moving into the area as good for the area. The very fact we moved into the area was proof enough to them that we had no issues, and they went out of their way to help us feel welcome. It seemed to me that it was the teens and young adults who had nothing to do but stand around on street corners that were most offended by our presence.

pimpsgangtasandhustlas will be a wealth of information to you guys. He's an extremely intelligent young man who grew up in Manchester. He's got the insider's knowledge. I personally think any investors wishing to improve Manchester would be wise to contract in some way with pimpsgangtasandhustlas. He's the right age and he's got the connections at all levels in the neighborhood to possibly be effective where older residents hoping to improve the area have failed in the past. Also, Pimps will know for certain which blocks are the safe blocks, etc.

[OutaFL]

I'm an outsider from South Florida, and I'm closing soon on a beautiful, renovated row house in the Deutschtown neighborhood. It is one of the 3-4 neighborhoods that surround the park, which is similar in some ways to Central Park in New York. Manchester, West Allegheny, Mexican War Streets, Deutschtown - all have great architecture, historic streets, mix of housing and retail - so much potential! If the Southside can be as hot as it is, the Northside should be even hotter with all it has going for it, which physically, is so much more. I hope more outsiders from other regions of the US and elsewhere, will discover the incredible potential and values/bargains of Pittsburgh, especially the Northside. Sometimes it takes a fresh perspective to realize how much an area really has to offer.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by OutaFL

I'm an outsider from South Florida, and I'm closing soon on a beautiful, renovated row house in the Deutschtown neighborhood. It is one of the 3-4 neighborhoods that surround the park, which is similar in some ways to Central Park in New York.

HUH???? In what ways is it similar to Central Park except that a) it's a park, and b) it's green? It isn't anywhere near the size, has nowhere near the features or amenities, and is in very, very different urban setting than Central Park. If anyplace in Pittsburgh comes close to Central Park, it's Schenley Park which actually IS a big park with various amenities/features/attractions besides just some open space.

[PPG]

Originally Posted by clawhammerist

Hello all,

I've greatly enjoyed browsing the posts on this forum for some time now; what a valuable resource it is! Thanks for all your contributions.

I'm writing to see what people feel the future holds for the Manchester neighborhood of Pittsburgh. This area really intrigues me, in spite of its having been "the hood" for so long, as other posters have noted. Its housing stock is exceptional, and it pleases me to see that some restoration work has taken place there.

In the next few years (working on the three- to five-year plan at this point...), I hope to relocate to Pittsburgh for a variety of reasons, and at that time, would be interested in buying a rowhouse there, either already restored (if affordable) or "structurally sound" but in need of work. I love the look and feel of the Mexican War Streets, but prices on restored houses have been going up-up-up in the most appealing section, IMHO, of that district (primarily the few blocks between North, Taylor, Palo Alto, and Buena Vista), which will surely render it unaffordable to me...and there seem to be few unrestored (and, in turn, potentially affordable) places left in that particular section. Manchester, on the other hand, has plenty of rowhouses yet to be restored, and even those that have already been worked on are not--yet--priced as high as their counterparts in the War Streets.

Given the success that restoration in the War Streets has had, plus the proximity of gorgeous but moneyed Beech Avenue (not to mention the easy access to downtown as well as the development on the North Shore), do people feel that it is only a matter of time before sections of Manchester go the same way? Or, could it be that the neighborhood is farther "gone" than those others ever were, and in need of more help than is likely to arrive anytime soon before home prices head north? I'd love to hear any and all analyses.

I realize that Manchester is currently a pretty scary place, by and large, as far as the general public might be concerned. However, there are some sections that appear safe-ish to me even now...certain blocks of Liverpool, Sheffield, and North come to mind. Is that the case, or are appearances deceiving and these streets are no safer than anyplace else in the neighborhood? For what it's worth, I'm comfortable with being an "urban pioneer" to a certain extent...especially in an area which has housing stock as good as or better than that in the War Streets but at much lower prices; in other words, if Manchester didn't have this going for it, I would look elsewhere.

To wrap up my perhaps unfocused ramblings...what say you about any of this? How long, if ever, before Manchester becomes the next lovely but unaffordable War Streets? Which streets/areas are in the best/worst shape at this point? If I were looking to move ASAP, would I be out of my mind, and if not, where would you recommend I "light" given the current state and safety of the neighborhood?

Any Manchester-related tangents are also welcomed. I am really fascinated by the area, and would love to hear anything people have to say about it.

Hey all, Pimps is back! As for Manchester I have to respond because it is a big topic in Pittsburgh's black community. The common thinking among us is that MC will always be "the hood", there is nothing that can be done to stop it, other than loading everyone on busses headed for the hill or homewood.
One major reason other than history is the fact we have black churches on almost every corner. Number two this is our neighborhood. We really dont take kindly to outsiders who want to take over, it's kinda offensive. Imagine if a bunch of "hood" blacks wanted to buy up most of the homes in Bethel park or USC.

Back to Manchester, it is a wonderful neighborhood but there is a drug and gang problem and there are shootings on every street (watch the news). Just last month a man got shot behind my aunts house. They shot him 4 times with an AK-47. And while its true that investors are buying up buildings that used to be section 8 and now naming them "Luxury Apts.", there are whites that move in and back out just as quickly. No one wants to pay $1000 a month to live next to section 8 and hear gunshots everynight.

As a side note they have renovated an old building into lofts and it had a sign that said "lofts - $250,000". They have taken the sign down for regular real estate signs but the new building has sat dark and vacant now for 2 1/2 years. I guess they think that the casino will make rich people want to live in the hood.??..

[Hopes]

Glad to see you back, Pimps! Why did you change your username to PPG?

[Drover]

Originally Posted by PPG

Number two this is our neighborhood. We really dont take kindly to outsiders who want to take over, it's kinda offensive. Imagine if a bunch of "hood" blacks wanted to buy up most of the homes in Bethel park or USC.

It's not "your" neighborhood because we have something in this country called freedom of movement and alienation of property. Neighborhoods can and do change demographic composition all the time. Whose neighborhood was Manchester before blacks moved in, and why were they not entitled to the same "it's OUR neighborhood" mentality that spurned a housing rights movement among and on behalf of blacks against precisely such attitudes?