Interesting read on Pittsburgh-Cleveland rail (Philadelphia, Erie: construction, college, costs)

[BrianTH]

This is the package sent to the federal DOT requesting designation of the Pittsburgh-Cleveland route as a high speed rail corridor, co-signed by Governors Strickland and Rendell. It includes an interesting review of the studies Ohio has done regarding this corridor, which it has included as part of its "Ohio Hub" plan, which in turn is designed to link up to a Midwest Regional system with a hub in Chicago:

http://www.dot.state.oh.us/Divisions/Rail/Programs/passenger/3CisME/Documents/Pittsburgh-Cleveland_extension_packet.pdf (broken link)

It ends up concluding a mixed 79MPH/110MPH service via Youngstown would make the most sense (it didn't consider anything faster than 110MPH, and is limited to 79MPH in the parts closer to Cleveland and Pittsburgh on either end due to sharing busy tracks with freight trains). There would be eight trains each way daily, with a split between trains that are express between Cleveland and Pittsburgh and ones making a few local stops. The result would be a 2 hour train that would be competitive with driving (and easily beat flying), and of course it would open up Pittsburgh to/from destinations further west. If and when the western part of the Keystone Corridor ever gets upgraded, it could also serve as the missing link between the Northeast and Midwest systems.

I'm actually curious what has happened with this--does anybody know if the DOT has taken any action on this request?

[gameguy56]

I'd rather Pittsburgh be linked to the East Coast than to Chicago.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by gameguy56

I'd rather Pittsburgh be linked to the East Coast than to Chicago.

Why choose just one?

Pittsburgh is a traditional gateway between the East Coast and points west (traditional meaning going back to the very beginning of its European colonization). Today, economic studies indicate we are oriented both ways, meaning we have particularly strong ties with cities in both directions. So, I think it makes sense from every perspective to want to link us with HSR going both ways, both for our own purposes and because it will form a valuable link in a greater system.

Incidentally, part of the reason the Ohio side is a little farther advanced is just that it is going to be easier to build out a decent service (basically, because there are no mountains in the way). It is also a bit of politics: Ohio state politics dictates taking the concerns of Northeast Ohio seriously, whereas in Pennsylvania the Philly/Harrisburg combination has felt like it can blow off Western PA when it comes to passenger rail investment. Hopefully that dynamic will change a bit once we get a Western PA governor, but in any event I'll take whatever service comes first.

[DarkWolf]

I think should the Feds or China should build a High Speed Rail corridor form Philly to Chicago. Philadelphia - Paoli - Lancaster - Harrisburg - Pittsburgh - Youngstown - Cleveland - Toledo - South Bend - Gary - Chicago The line would have a top speed of 220mph & Averages of 180mph & cost around 30 billion $$. The line would need an estimated 26,000-30,000 workers over 4 years to build. My Chinese friend did all the Math for me. I do think one day the line will get built , the Chinese are taking great interest at it and other lines. I think the line would be used by 100,000+ daily , but not end to end.

[BrianTH]

I agree we should go big with Philly to Chicago, and if the Chinese want to do it, great (I kinda doubt the Feds will, but you never know).

Incidentally, speaking of the more modest approach in the PDF: it occurred to me that with a significant federal contribution and a reasonable split between PA and Ohio, this shouldn't necessarily cost PA all that much. For example, although this is in 2002 dollars and doesn't account in particular for increased commodities costs, adding up all the projected costs from Pittsburgh to New Castle and half the costs from New Castle to Youngstown gets you to about $80 million. Even assuming a considerable increase in costs, after a decent federal contribution that really shouldn't be a large amount--certainly much less than upgrading Harrisburg to Pittsburgh.

Edit: Oh, and one last thought. Pittsburgh to Youngstown and Warren in around an hour (give or take) is an intriguing possibility to me. There are some interesting things going on in that area and I think this could help bring all that further into a Pittsburgh orbit.

[grimacista]

The rail connection to Cleveland is interesting because it would make sure we are in the loop for rail developments radiating out from Chicago and not get left behind.

I guess as far as the US goes, those speeds are ok, and if it takes 2 hours, makes it feasible for business travelers to head up there in the morning and back in the evening.

It would be even nicer if it was high speed rail in the style of seemingly every other country where that trip would take 45 minutes.

[pman]

It's my understanding that little to nothing is happening. since PA got shut out of the first round (basically, despite having one of the few actual HSR proposals), the second round requires a match we don't have, and the people at PennDOT are waiting to be replaced by new appointees. I hope that's not true but it's from a reliable source. the only thing I know that is moving forward is the Keystone West (Harrisburg Pitt) study that was funded by round 1. to make matters worse, PRIIA legislation requires full funding with capital of routes of less than 750 miles, which means PA will have to come up with more money for existing services, at atime when pensions will eat increasingly large portions of the budget. all in all, for the time being, HSR appears to be a pipe dream, but hey, OH is getting a once a day train that will average all of 38 mph!
http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/BlobSe...iceStudies.pdf

the bright side is that the next governor should be more interested in Pittsburgh (though the last governor didn't do much for rail in his hometown)

[BrianTH]

From a Pittsburgh perspective, we pretty much knew we needed some real studies first before Keystone West could go anywhere, so in that sense I don't know if it matters for us right now that nothing else is moving along. Eventually the state budget situation will improve, and the Feds will be putting up more money for surface transportation, so hopefully by that time we are ready to go with some Pittsburgh-related proposals.

Fortunately, freight rail going through the Pittsburgh area got a sizeable Tiger Grant. It isn't passenger rail but it should help the local economy.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

From a Pittsburgh perspective, we pretty much knew we needed some real studies first before Keystone West could go anywhere, so in that sense I don't know if it matters for us right now that nothing else is moving along. Eventually the state budget situation will improve, and the Feds will be putting up more money for surface transportation, so hopefully by that time we are ready to go with some Pittsburgh-related proposals.

Fortunately, freight rail going through the Pittsburgh area got a sizeable Tiger Grant. It isn't passenger rail but it should help the local economy.

yeah, I view things through a pennsylvania and rail perspective so I suppose I see it differently, though I can't even agree with the statement that it doesn't matter to pittsburgh. it matters in that this stuff takes time and that east and west of still need to be funded, after all, ridership to the middle of the state will be paid for by ridership to NY and Philadelphia.

this came as a surprise

[SIZE=4]Pennsylvania[/SIZE][SIZE=4] Applies for $1.6 Million for High-Speed Rail Planning Study [/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Study Would Analyze Increased Service for Lake Erie Corridor[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]HARRISBURG, Pa., May 20 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ -- Pennsylvania has applied for a $1.6 million federal grant from the High-Speed Intercity Passenger Rail Program to study possible expansion of rail service between Ohio and New York State through Erie, Governor Edward G. Rendell announced today. If selected for the federal grant, PennDOT will invest $400,000 in state funds to complete the study.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]"The Lake Erie Corridor has significant public support for its potential to expand rail service among Ohio, Pennsylvania, New York and points beyond," Governor Rendell said. "This application shows Pennsylvania's commitment to maintaining and expanding our intercity rail infrastructure by increasing efficiency and reducing road congestion."[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]The Lake Erie Corridor Investment Plan would examine potential infrastructure improvements to allow for fast, reliable passenger rail transportation. A Service Development Plan and environmental planning will help determine the feasibility of expanding the service. A cost/benefit analysis will also be performed, serving as the basis for a potential cooperative agreement among the states and local officials in finding funding for the improvements.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]The corridor connects Erie with Cleveland, Ohio, and Buffalo, N.Y., and is now served by Amtrak's Lake Shore Limited service, which provides one train in each direction each day between Chicago, New York City and Boston. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]The Federal Railroad Administration in March announced the availability of $115 million for high-speed rail projects, $50 million for planning and $65 million for construction projects. The funding is part of President Obama's commitment to invest in efficient, high-speed passenger rail to address the nation's transportation challenges. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] Media contacts:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] Rich Kirkpatrick, PennDOT; 717-783-8800[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] Gary Tuma, Governor's Office; 717-783-1116[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]SOURCE Pennsylvania Office of the Governor

[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1][/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Brian-what's your take on the spine line if Onorato wins? didn't he promise to support that as the next project?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1][/SIZE]

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

yeah, I view things through a pennsylvania and rail perspective so I suppose I see it differently, though I can't even agree with the statement that it doesn't matter to pittsburgh. it matters in that this stuff takes time and that east and west of still need to be funded, after all

Yeah, but Keystone East is so far ahead of Keystone West that it will be a long time before insufficient service to Harrisburg is the primary restraint on service to Pittsburgh from points east. I mean you could have a 220MPH train to Harrisburg, and it still wouldn't do much for ridership to Pittsburgh given the current state of Keystone West.

ridership to the middle of the state will be paid for by ridership to NY and Philadelphia.

Mostly, although people do go from State College, Altoona, Johnstown and so on west to Pittsburgh, and potentially from there beyond.

this came as a surprise

To me too. I guess they didn't want to be left out of this round of funding, but I'd hate to think it was any sort of priority.

Brian-what's your take on the spine line if Onorato wins? didn't he promise to support that as the next project?

Onorato has said good things about the Spine Line, but he is also a politician first and foremost, and he would have to deal with the General Assembly and a major budget crisis. On the plus side, maybe there will be federal financing available. The cynic in me thinks we will be lucky to get some sort of public-private partnership deal, and we may even just get a little money for Rapid Bus, but who knows.