Another list: Pittsburgh among 10 Cities Primed for a Real Estate Recovery (Lebanon: home, construction)

[Yac]

Guys, agree to disagree or talk in private. This is really off topic.
Yac.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by user_id

But even looking at those pictures, the majority of those homes are not in "working class" neighborhoods from the boom period. Again, you like to ignore conjunctions, I've explicitly stated that the stuff before the boom is often nicer (in architecturally terms). You also, avoided the question. I asked you to name a "working class" community from Pittsburgh's boom days that has nice homes with architectural value.

Please tell me SPECIFICALLY the names of the neighborhoods you think the working class lived during the boom days?

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by user_id

Things like metal ties, truss mesh, etc. The details are different from state to state, but every where requires some sort of reinforcement on load-bearing walls.

As an aside, metal ties between wythes are old technology and would have been used in double brick walls where they didn't use headers. Anyway, as I am sure you know, there are several model building codes. Please show me the code provisions you have in mind that require these things. Or feel free to just use actual Pennsylvania building codes. But at this point, I don't want any more games: you say there are requirements, so show me the requirements, in writing, that you are talking about.

Talking to someone else again. What I said is that rebar is not required in all cases. Most modern double wall brick structures are built with the outside in your standard solid red brick and the inside with concrete hollow bricks. The inner wall will need to use rebar and of course the bricks will have to be filled with mortar.

If you aren't giving examples of things that I would be required to do, please stop. I don't want more red herrings like the rebar issue: your original claim was that I was required to use reinforcement on brick walls, so I don't want any more examples of things that are optional but not required.

And as I've stated many times, I'm not talking about homes with architectural and/or aesthetic value. I'm talking about the houses that are essentially brick boxes with roofs. There is little to no decoration.

Most Pittsburgh homes in working class neighborhoods simply do not fit this description.

Why are you posting pictures? I know what the city looks like and I have never claimed that ALL old lower end homes from the boom period are junk, just a good deal. I'm not going to pondificate whether they majority are or the majority aren't...I really don't know.

Too late for that: above you claimed "I don't think a brick box with windows has architectural value though and is what the majority of the "working class" homes from this period amount to."

But I guess you are now withdrawing that claim. Fine.

What I know is that there are many neighborhoods filled with ugly boxes that are extremely run down, often vacant, etc.

So which is it? You aren't claiming it is a majority, or are the neighborhoods filled with them? You think some homes are ugly and rundown, but does that actually mean they don't have architectural value? I'd like to know exactly what you have in mind before I give you the keys to the bulldozer and set you loose on Pittsburgh's neighborhoods.

But even looking at those pictures, the majority of those homes are not in "working class" neighborhoods from the boom period.

The South Side, Uptown, Oakland, Hill District, Polish Hill, Lawrenceville, Morningside, Strip, Bloomfield, Hazelwood . . . there were a lot more pictures from working class neighborhoods than not.

Again, you like to ignore conjunctions, I've explicitly stated that the stuff before the boom is often nicer (in architecturally terms).

I don't remember you stating that, and exactly when are you dating the start of Pittsburgh's "boom" and on what basis?

You also, avoided the question. I asked you to name a "working class" community from Pittsburgh's boom days that has nice homes with architectural value.

I didn't avoid the question: I thought it was obvious from the link I provided. Anyway, see the list above for some examples of working class neighborhoods containing homes with architectural value. Note that whether you personally consider them "nice" is not a burden I have accepted.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Yac

Guys, agree to disagree or talk in private. This is really off topic.
Yac.

Sorry, I didn't see this before I posted my latest.

But I would submit this isn't really off topic. It may be boring for most people to read through all this back and forth, but I think User Id and I both agree these issues are actually relevant to the future course of the real estate market in Pittsburgh, which was the original topic.

[user_id]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

If you aren't giving examples of things that I would be required to do, please stop. I don't want more red herrings like the rebar issue: your original claim was that I was required to use reinforcement on brick walls, so I don't want any more examples of things that are optional but not required.

Looking up the building codes and posting them takes more time than I'm willing to spend. Also, rebar is not "optional" its required in some cases and not required in others (namely, those were its not applicable in the first place). Your brought up an example of where it may or may not be required, it depends on the materials being used.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

But I guess you are now withdrawing that claim. Fine.

Sure, I've never really done a survey and nor have you. Whether its "most", 40%, 60% etc, does not matter. I'm not talking about tearing down 50% of Pittsburgh, I'm talking about tearing down some eye sores.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

So which is it? You aren't claiming it is a majority, or are the neighborhoods filled with them? You think some homes are ugly and rundown, but does that actually mean they don't have architectural value? I'd like to know exactly what you have in mind before I give you the keys to the bulldozer and set you loose on Pittsburgh's neighborhoods.

There are neighborhoods filled with them, they tend to be clustered. Each of the districts you mentioned have neighborhoods with the sorts of homes I have in mind.

This back and forth always results in nothing. The point of mentioning "ugly brick boxes" was to indicate that there are a number of homes in Pittsburgh that have no real architectural and/or aesthetic value and one should not be shy about tearing these guys down even if they are relatively intact. I'm not even sure, what you are even arguing at this point.

Anyhow, this is not particularly relevant to whether Pittsburgh is "primed" for a recovery in its real estate market (despite, not having a crash yet...). So, I'll stop here.

[ditchdigger]

Since you two seem to be running out of gas...

Originally Posted by both combatants

...brick wall......rebar......building code...yada, yada, yada....

In my more than 30 years in the construction industry, most of it in the residential end, I have never ever, not even once, seen "rebar" in a "brick wall". Perhaps it's just a case of your vocabularies being limited, or maybe you really don't have a handle on it at all. I dunno.

(This post presented as a public service, so that everybody now wonders whether anybody knows what the heck they're talking about...)

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ditchdigger

In my more than 30 years in the construction industry, most of it in the residential end, I have never ever, not even once, seen "rebar" in a "brick wall".

I've never seen it myself, but supposedly in commercial construction you sometimes might put rebar in the gap between the wythes and then fill the gap with mortar. There is a picture on page 54 of this link (hopefully) that I dug up:

Building with Masonry - Google Books

By the way, I didn't mean to imply I was an expert or anything, but I have seen people building brick walls for a house, and there was nothing I would call "reinforcement" involved. Still, you never know what you don't know, so I was trying to see if the other poster really might know something I didn't.

[ditchdigger]

I've never seen it myself, but supposedly in commercial construction you sometimes might put rebar in the gap between the wythes and then fill the gap with mortar. There is a picture on page 54 of this link (hopefully) that I dug up:

Yeah. Before I posted, I googled around a little myself and found a similar example, which is why I limited my statement to saying that I've never seen it; not that it's never been done. I will say that I believe it to be exceedingly rare, since brick is a labor-intensive kind of construction. There are better and cheaper ways of doing the same thing. And, I've worked on quite a few masonry walls that do include grout and rebar, as shown a little further on in the link you provided, but the brick is simply a facing.

As a matter of fact, most of the brick you see, especially in residential construction, and especially in buildings that are not really, really old, is brick veneer. It's the house that holds up the surrounding brickwork, not the brickwork that holds up the house.

I have seen brickwork that's actually laid on wood, believe it or not. There's a community in Perry Hilltop, called Perry Point, that's two rows of 100+ year old townhouses (plus some more recent new construction). The party walls are wood framed, with brick laid in between. I guess that met the fire resistance part of the building code in Eighteen-ninety-whatever-it-was.

And I bring that up to tie back into the discussion you were having.

I don't think there's anything particularly architecturally significant about those old rowhouses. They were probably built as a "working class neighborhood" originally, but back in the 1980s they were deemed worthy of complete gutting and rehab. To me, that speaks the the relative importance of how viable the neighborhood, as it exists today, is deemed to be, as opposed to how architecturally significant any given house in that neighborhood might be.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ditchdigger

As a matter of fact, most of the brick you see, especially in residential construction, and especially in buildings that are not really, really old, is brick veneer. It's the house that holds up the surrounding brickwork, not the brickwork that holds up the house.

Yep, but I actually like load-bearing double brick construction (and I gather it remains more popular in some other countries than in the United States). I think the thermal mass can really be an asset in an area like Pittsburgh, and if you are smart about a few things it can help minimize or eliminate your need for air conditioning.

[Yac]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Sorry, I didn't see this before I posted my latest.

But I would submit this isn't really off topic. It may be boring for most people to read through all this back and forth, but I think User Id and I both agree these issues are actually relevant to the future course of the real estate market in Pittsburgh, which was the original topic.

Well, have you checked the thread title ? We have a separate forum here, where you can talk about all the construction details you want. I understand this is connected to the topic, but it's hardly what the topic is about.
Yac.