Maglev is back in action...again. (Pittsburgh, York: house, neighborhood, to live)

[pman]

Like I said, I think the pilot is the wrong way to go. PA should study high speed alternatives across the state (Philly-Pitt). I think either way will involve an incremental upgrade (since service is so poor now) but the lon grange study should compare conventional HSR routes (likely with dedicated ROW west of Harrisburg and perhaps straighten the ROW east of Harrisburg) vs Mag Lev which may have to cannabalize two of the tracks on the harrisburg section (used to be four plus tracks)and certainly would need it straightened out and probably tunneling in the Philly Metro area. there are approaches via the rivers but they are currently used for freight so there would have to be a freight line relocation added in as well..but, IF it offers significant benefits as you imply, it should be considered. Philly also allows for good connections to NY, Baltimore, and Washington as well as Boston and the Jersey Shore). Costs are sure to be higher, but the solution would be far more useful than a Pittsburgh airport solution and of course, Pittsburgh would not be isolated by any stretch of the imagination. all of a sudden, Pittsburgh would be a day trip from Philly and a short hop from NYC.

[BrianTH]

The thing is that this is federal money, and they were specifically looking for a relatively short-route pilot program to fund, and this route was funded after a lengthy competitive process. I agree if the state was just handed $28 million for rail studies, or even for maglev studies, this very probably wouldn't be the way to spend it.

[highway29south]

I am really praying this thing doesn't go through. I live in Robinson and last I heard, they are proposing to put this darn thing right through our neighborhood. Talk about a drop in property values! They would have to tear down some beautiful homes to do it too. What a shame.

I also cannot see who is going to ride this thing and pay the enormous fee to do it. It is not that expensive or difficult to drive to Pgh. International and pay to park. Plus the news is reporting that the airport is becoming less and less busy. There are few direct flights anymore and it's just not the place it used to be.

What a waste of money.

[BrianTH]

Last I knew they were talking about $5 for a ride from the airport to Downtown, which would take about 11 minutes. It can be so cheap because the operations costs are low (although that means they aren't likely to pay back the capital costs).

By the way, I knew there was something like $45 million set aside for maglev projects east of the Mississippi, and I was wondering where the rest of the money went. It turns out it is mostly going to $14.2 million for environmental impact studies for a proposed Atlanta-Chattanooga route (specifically to connect Hartsfield-Jackson Atlanta International Airport with Chattanooga's Lovell Field):

Georgia high-speed rail plan lands federal grant - Atlanta Business Chronicle:

By my calculations there is still 2-3 million left, and the other route on the short list was Baltimore-Washington, so I wonder if they are also getting something.

[ctoocheck]

I am really praying this thing doesn't go through. I live in Robinson and last I heard, they are proposing to put this darn thing right through our neighborhood. Talk about a drop in property values! They would have to tear down some beautiful homes to do it too. What a shame.

Sorry, but "NIMBY" isn't really a good argument. Also I would propose that most of those houses in Robinson are probably just sprawly and McMansiony, though I can't say for sure of course. Next, the Maglev "tracks" aren't supposed to be horrible eyesores from what I can tell, and it's also supposed to be pretty quiet (heck, I am in Germany now and tons of their normal trains run really surprisingly quiet)

I've also tried to think of some other general pros and cons of this project. I am still not sure what I think about it. I think it's more complex than "this is good for Pittsburgh" or "this costs a lot of money".

The good:
1. The opprotunites for researching new transportation technologies. Sometimes we need to plop down a big chuck of change to do stuff like this. Was the Space Race cheap? Was it worth it?
2. A new mode of transport like Maglev would provide the chance to clear up crowded airspace around places like New York, Philly, etc due to the increased use of modes of transportation besides air (which also has environmental benefits)
3. Possible travel benefits: speed, comfort, etc.
4. The possible benefits to Pittsburgh as the showcase for the project, job creation, new infrastructure, etc

The bad:
1. Huge cost (but is it worth it considering the pros above? Especially #1)
2. Maglev is not a totally proven technology, and is incompatible with current systems
3. Acquisition of new rights-of-way (thuough, really, this might have to be done if we expanded any form of transport. I think it would be worth it, considering it doesn't do what the Parkway North did to East Allegheny, or what I-93 did to Boston and its North End, for example)
4. Would this starter line ever actually expland to a nation-wide system?

[BrianTH]

I might note that there is a good bet if you are talking about new rights of way in each case, building out maglev could actually end up not much more expensive, and maybe even less expensive, than conventional HSR, and maglev would fairly quickly end up ahead on a total cost basis after considering lower maintenance costs (no physical contact with the infrastructure really helps), lower operating costs, and higher operating revenues (because it should be a somewhat faster and more reliable service).

So even given the backwards compatibility issue, you might think an incremental investment in maglev could work if all the advantages were enough to make up for the need for transfers. Indeed, you could imagine upgrading conventional rail to the point you don't need new rights of way, but then opting for maglev.

[highway29south]

Originally Posted by ctoocheck

Sorry, but "NIMBY" isn't really a good argument. Also I would propose that most of those houses in Robinson are probably just sprawly and McMansiony, though I can't say for sure of course. Next, the Maglev "tracks" aren't supposed to be horrible eyesores from what I can tell, and it's also supposed to be pretty quiet (heck, I am in Germany now and tons of their normal trains run really surprisingly quiet)

I've also tried to think of some other general pros and cons of this project. I am still not sure what I think about it. I think it's more complex than "this is good for Pittsburgh" or "this costs a lot of money".

The good:
1. The opprotunites for researching new transportation technologies. Sometimes we need to plop down a big chuck of change to do stuff like this. Was the Space Race cheap? Was it worth it?
2. A new mode of transport like Maglev would provide the chance to clear up crowded airspace around places like New York, Philly, etc due to the increased use of modes of transportation besides air (which also has environmental benefits)
3. Possible travel benefits: speed, comfort, etc.
4. The possible benefits to Pittsburgh as the showcase for the project, job creation, new infrastructure, etc

The bad:
1. Huge cost (but is it worth it considering the pros above? Especially #1)
2. Maglev is not a totally proven technology, and is incompatible with current systems
3. Acquisition of new rights-of-way (thuough, really, this might have to be done if we expanded any form of transport. I think it would be worth it, considering it doesn't do what the Parkway North did to East Allegheny, or what I-93 did to Boston and its North End, for example)
4. Would this starter line ever actually expland to a nation-wide system?

Uh, it doesn't sound like you've ever been through Robinson. We are hardly "McMansiony" like say Peters Township or Upper Saint Clair is. I happen to live in a home that is over 60 years old as do my neighbors, who would be the ones to have their homes torn down by the wonderful Maglev project. Some of these homes have been here a long time and belong to generations of families. The maglev would run right through where our children play and catch their school buses everyday and tear our neighborhood in half. Sorry, but unless it's happening to you, your opinion of this "great" project doesn't count as much.

We happen to be a very family oriented community where neighbors get together often, watch out of each other and generally try to keep our area as nice as possible. To interrupt this neighborhood with an high speed train running right through it is not my idea of "showcasing" Pittsburgh. As someone who is not a native of Pittsburgh, what they heck does that mean anyway? Most people love visiting here but few stay. And most don't care if we have Maglev or not. It's just not that relavent to anyone outside of this city.

The population in this city just doesn't support a project like this. All of the major cities would benefit much more and it would give the project a good test for other maglev projects. We are not a major hub nor do our transportation issues demand a resolution as drastic as a high speed train.

[ctoocheck]

Uh, it doesn't sound like you've ever been through Robinson.

Sorry. You are correct, I haven't been around there much. My only impressions are from driving to the airport and Ikea... :-p In any case, From an urban design standpoint, considering the area's spread-out nature and the relatively (seemingly) unintrusive nature of the Maglev infrastructrure, I don't think this project would quite destroy your neighborhood, though I do understand it is likely much nicer without Maglev running through it. People will still catch schoolbuses and play in yards, although some people are sure to lose their house or part of their property. But again, in any case, except in cases like those I referenced earlier (I93 in Boston and the Parkway north) where more compact and thriving communities were much more literally cut in half, I don't think "NIMBY!!"is a good argument for something like this. But that is a topic for a discussion on eminent domain.

Sorry, but unless it's happening to you, your opinion of this "great" project doesn't count as much.

I disagree and reverse the argument! I think if it (ie your property being taken) is happening to you, you are more likely make an emotional and non-objective reaction to a project regardless of its merit. Nobody wants to lose their house. But it has to happen somewhere...

As someone who is not a native of Pittsburgh, what they heck does that mean anyway?

I am from Pgh, I am just not currently there... But I think it would at least be some sort of plus for the area. I can't really be sure exactly how. It would probably depend on ridership, future population fluctuations, etc etc. If nothing else, it is cool.

All of the major cities would benefit much more and it would give the project a good test for other maglev projects. We are not a major hub nor do our transportation issues demand a resolution as drastic as a high speed train.

I think some other people pointed out possible reasons Pgh was chosen as a test subjet, namely climate and topography. As for transportation options, yes, a more crowded area such as the Northeast corridor or California would likely be a better option for a Maglev. But the idea is that it should (concievably) work its way over there some day. Maybe Pgh was chosen since it's between the Northeast and Chicago, two possible areas for future connections? I don't know.

Edit: addition:

Maglev from the Airport to Downtown is stupid Period

Only for transportation between the two (not considering other possible pluses), yeah, kinda.

[Copanut]

Maglev from the Airport to Downtown is stupid Period

[highway29south]

Originally Posted by ctoocheck

Sorry. You are correct, I haven't been around there much. My only impressions are from driving to the airport and Ikea... :-p In any case, From an urban design standpoint, considering the area's spread-out nature and the relatively (seemingly) unintrusive nature of the Maglev infrastructrure, I don't think this project would quite destroy your neighborhood, though I do understand it is likely much nicer without Maglev running through it. People will still catch schoolbuses and play in yards, although some people are sure to lose their house or part of their property. But again, in any case, except in cases like those I referenced earlier (I93 in Boston and the Parkway north) where more compact and thriving communities were much more literally cut in half, I don't think "NIMBY!!"is a good argument for something like this. But that is a topic for a discussion on eminent domain.


I disagree and reverse the argument! I think if it (ie your property being taken) is happening to you, you are more likely make an emotional and non-objective reaction to a project regardless of its merit. Nobody wants to lose their house. But it has to happen somewhere...

I am from Pgh, I am just not currently there... But I think it would at least be some sort of plus for the area. I can't really be sure exactly how. It would probably depend on ridership, future population fluctuations, etc etc. If nothing else, it is cool.

I think some other people pointed out possible reasons Pgh was chosen as a test subjet, namely climate and topography. As for transportation options, yes, a more crowded area such as the Northeast corridor or California would likely be a better option for a Maglev. But the idea is that it should (concievably) work its way over there some day. Maybe Pgh was chosen since it's between the Northeast and Chicago, two possible areas for future connections? I don't know.

Edit: addition:

Only for transportation between the two (not considering other possible pluses), yeah, kinda.

Again, since you have never been to Robinson except for Ikea, then how would you know what the neighborhoods are like? Ikea hardly represents how Robinson is laid out. Our neigborhood is like any other in a middle class area, the homes are next to one another and backyards intersect. It is not sprawled out but instead close together.

The maglev project proposes to literally run the train right through my neighbor's homes and across a well used connecting street. It will take away the homes of dozens of families, none of which are well to do or own "McMansions". It would divide our neighborhood literally in half. And it would affect my children playing with their friends since their friends live on the other side of the intersecting Maglev. This is important not because I am "emotional and non-objective" to the project, but because I happen to live here and my neighbors are the ones losing their homes. You, on the other hand, have never even visited this area. Big difference in knowing what the heck you are talking about.

Sure, my kids will still play in our yard. But now instead of other homes and trees to look at, it'll be an high speed train. Yippeee! If I wanted that, I would have moved next to the train station.

Pittsburgh does not need this train. We have enough trouble with keeping the Port Authority buses running (loads of tax dollars there) and with keeping the overly expensive airport up and running. Our roads to the airport are being improved and access is easy. What in the world do we need a maglev train for? Most of our population is elderly and would not utilize a service like this and our population is going down in general. To put in the train just because of topography is not a good reason. And maybe someday we'll connect it to other cities? That doesn't make any sense. Put it in those cities now, not where it would just go to waste. I really don't think people want to lose their homes for such shoddy reasons.

Robinson Township is thankfully fighting this project tooth and nail. They realize the negative impact of a high speed train running right through a family neighborhood. I hope the fight continues to hold up any progress on this train.

"NIMBY" may not be a good enough arguement for you, but neither is "If nothing else, it is cool" a good one for the families that would lose their homes to this useless waste of our tax dollars.