Barnes and Noble closing. (Pittsburgh, Liberty: mall, map, market)

[greg42]

Originally Posted by dugdogmaster

You're kidding right, they actually tried a marketing ploy like that? Unreal.

Well, yeah, pretty much. The whole development around what was originally just the Whole Foods store, now including Walgreens, Borders, etc. is simply called Eastside. The developer does not hide the fact that it's in East Liberty, if you look at the portfolio portfolio.jpg

But now, the Eastside name has caught on as a marketing ploy. The old plaza next to where the Trader Joe's was built is now called I believe Village at Eastside. And the Bakery Square development next to that is tacking "at Eastside" onto its name as well. Those places are on Penn and not really even marginally in Shadyside.

More retail is coming, too. Eventually there is to be a Target which will be right on Penn (where the most recent housing high rise demolition took place, between Shady and Penn Circle). EDIT: Actually, in here you can see that the same developer is involved. http://www.mosites.net/developments.htm In the III-V section, the big space at the end with D, that's supposed to be the Target.

I don't think for people who live in the area the naming or borders are a big deal at all. And for people newer to Pittsburgh, they're probably wondering what the fuss is about. The people who cringe at the name East Liberty are the ones who haven't been there in years and probably live in the suburbs now.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by dugdogmaster

You're kidding right, they actually tried a marketing ploy like that? Unreal.

Sadly, I am not kidding at all. They used the "Eastside" name for the development east of Whole Foods with the Borders and such, they renamed the strip mall with Trader Joes, Petland, and so on the "Village of Eastside", and they are even calling the Bakery Square project "Bakery Square at Eastside" (and that is technically Larimer!). [Edit: I see greg covered the same ground]

Very annoying. In fact I can't decide whether that is the most annoying neighborhood faux-name in Pittsburgh, or whether that crown still belongs to the North Shore (rivers do not have shores, they have banks, and that is the North Side anyway, no matter what they claim).

[ditchdigger]

and they are even calling the Bakery Square project "Bakery Square at Eastside" (and that is technically Larimer!).

With that, I'd disagree. Larimer, to me would be on the other side of the tracks, and east of East Liberty Blvd. The Port Authoriy's East Liberty garage is in that same area between Penn Ave and the tracks, and the East Liberty post office is just on the other side of the tracks, but west of East Liberty Blvd.

I don't think for people who live in the area the naming or borders are a big deal at all. And for people newer to Pittsburgh, they're probably wondering what the fuss is about. The people who cringe at the name East Liberty are the ones who haven't been there in years and probably live in the suburbs now.

I can tell you that East Liberty lost territory, and Shadyside grew, in proportion to their fortunes in the 70s and 80s. I'm one of those who is from there, with roots about about three generations deep, and seeing the developments linked to above, now realize how long it's been since I drove Center Ave. (I now live in Beaver County, so by your definition, I'm entitled to make a big deal of my outdated opinion, whatever it may be. )

Mom and Dad were both from the area east of Shady Ave, and south of Penn, well south of the tracks, like where the "Village of Shadyside" is now, and they, unequivocally, grew up in East Liberty.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ditchdigger

With that, I'd disagree. Larimer, to me would be on the other side of the tracks, and east of East Liberty Blvd. The Port Authoriy's East Liberty garage is in that same area between Penn Ave and the tracks, and the East Liberty post office is just on the other side of the tracks, but west of East Liberty Blvd.

Well that is why I said technically--I'm not sure I have met anyone who actually thinks of that stretch as Larimer--but here is the official neighborhood map showing it is in fact technically Larimer:

Larimer Map

I might note it actually makes some sense to just continue the East Liberty/Larimer border along East Liberty Boulevard as it curves around to Penn, instead of jogging the border onto the RR/Busway for a run over to Washington. Again, I'm not saying anyone actually thinks of Larimer this way, but that is the official verdict.

Mom and Dad were both from the area east of Shady Ave, and south of Penn, well south of the tracks, like where the "Village of Shadyside" is now, and they, unequivocally, grew up in East Liberty.

When I first moved to Pittsburgh in 1993, I lived on Spahr just east of College. A bunch of people at the time insisted I really lived in East Liberty, even though the landlord told me it was Shadyside. When I met my wife a few years later, she had an apartment on Marchand in the area east of Shady you are describing, and it was the same deal then (people insisting she was really in East Liberty).

I'd actually be curious to see what people considered the borders of East Liberty to be back in the day. Looking at the map . . .

http://www.city.pittsburgh.pa.us/cp/.../shadyside.pdf

. . . you can see a visual argument for at least including that part east of College starting with Spahr, because it looks like the street grid is basically trying to turn itself to orient with the grid in East Liberty as opposed to the grid in the heart of Shadyside. Or, in other words, you might see East Liberty starting where the street grid is oriented around Highland, at least after Highland starts bending at Walnut.

[Geeo]

More fun geography: years ago, South Highland Avenue and Ellsworth Avenue were part of East Liberty, not Shadyside. There was a bridge that connected Ellsworth over the railroad tracks to Centre Avenue at a five-way intersection where the Plum restaurant is now. The bridge was taken down when the busway was built, virtually cutting Ellsworth off from East Liberty and creating the funky few blocks that are there now. That section of Ellsworth was really part of the East Liberty business district originally. Same with South Highland. When I moves to S. Highland in 1983, some of the merchants still had "East Liberty Chamber of Commerce" stickers on their doors. I work with a woman who grew up inthe 60s and 70s on Aerilia Street, and she was definitely in East Liberty then. Now it's Shadyside. Amazing how boundaries and perceptions change over the years.

[groar]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Very annoying. In fact I can't decide whether that is the most annoying neighborhood faux-name in Pittsburgh, or whether that crown still belongs to the North Shore (rivers do not have shores, they have banks, and that is the North Side anyway, no matter what they claim).

ah, i never realized that "north shore" was a fake neighborhood name! that shore/bank thing always bugged me.

[Little Mizz Pittsburgh]

Originally Posted by Geeo

More fun geography: years ago, South Highland Avenue and Ellsworth Avenue were part of East Liberty, not Shadyside. There was a bridge that connected Ellsworth over the railroad tracks to Centre Avenue at a five-way intersection where the Plum restaurant is now. The bridge was taken down when the busway was built, virtually cutting Ellsworth off from East Liberty and creating the funky few blocks that are there now. That section of Ellsworth was really part of the East Liberty business district originally. Same with South Highland. When I moves to S. Highland in 1983, some of the merchants still had "East Liberty Chamber of Commerce" stickers on their doors. I work with a woman who grew up inthe 60s and 70s on Aerilia Street, and she was definitely in East Liberty then. Now it's Shadyside. Amazing how boundaries and perceptions change over the years.

Interesting.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by greg42

But now, the Eastside name has caught on as a marketing ploy. The old plaza next to where the Trader Joe's was built is now called I believe Village at Eastside. And the Bakery Square development next to that is tacking "at Eastside" onto its name as well. Those places are on Penn and not really even marginally in Shadyside.

They're literally across the street from Shadyside. Can't get much closer than that. IMO the "Eastside" monicker is apropos since these developments literally straddle the Shadyside/East Liberty border. Maybe I'm not cynical enough but this doesn't look to me like an attempt to dissociate itself from East Liberty.

[Drover]

Originally Posted by groar

ah, i never realized that "north shore" was a fake neighborhood name! that shore/bank thing always bugged me.

It's not fake, it just didn't come into vogue as a seperate identity until it started redeveloping. It's still an annoying name though.

[ditchdigger]

South Highland Avenue and Ellsworth Avenue were part of East Liberty, not Shadyside. There was a bridge that connected Ellsworth over the railroad tracks to Centre Avenue at a five-way intersection where the Plum restaurant is now. The bridge was taken down when the busway was built, virtually cutting Ellsworth off from East Liberty and creating the funky few blocks that are there now. That section of Ellsworth was really part of the East Liberty business district originally. Same with South Highland. When I moves to S. Highland in 1983, some of the merchants still had "East Liberty Chamber of Commerce" stickers on their doors. I work with a woman who grew up inthe 60s and 70s on Aerilia Street, and she was definitely in East Liberty then. Now it's Shadyside. Amazing how boundaries and perceptions change over the years.

I'd have argued, even then, that once you crossed the bridge on Ellsworth, you were in Shadyside. (Side note. That bridge was taken down because it was in bad condition. The decision to not replace it may have hinged on the pending busway construction, or it may have been simply a cost consideration. I don't know.)

As I said, the borders moved with the fortunes of the neighborhoods. Shadyside's stock went up, and Sliberty's went down, and those blocks essentially defected.

Not saying that I'm right, but at the time, I'd probably have drawn the Shadyside/East liberty line at Shady Avenue, which would put Aurelia, Marchand, etc. in East Liberty, as well as the ballfields of Mellon Park. There's no way they are (historically anyway), in Shadyside.

I might note it actually makes some sense to just continue the East Liberty/Larimer border along East Liberty Boulevard as it curves around to Penn, instead of jogging the border onto the RR/Busway for a run over to Washington.

If you look at the map and draw the line at Shady, it doesn't seem so odd to include the bakery and bus garage with Sliberty instead of Larimer.

. . .you can see a visual argument for at least including that part east of College starting with Spahr, because it looks like the street grid is basically trying to turn itself to orient with the grid in East Liberty as opposed to the grid in the heart of Shadyside. Or, in other words, you might see East Liberty starting where the street grid is oriented around Highland, at least after Highland starts bending at Walnut.

True. But, I grew up half a block east of Highland, and Mom told me I lived in Shadyside, so it must be true. That was despite the fact that the postal code, Pgh 32 (Shadyside), ends at Highland, and Pgh 6 (East Liberty), begins there. (What's with this "zipcode" stuff anyway? I don't get it. )