Amtrak delivers required report on Pittsburgh train service (Altoona, Harrisburg: home, costs)

[ctoocheck]

The problem is State College is pretty far out of the way if you are trying to go from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh.

Not really. Connecting SC, Harrisburg, Pgh, and Philly gives you a distance of about 270 miles. Leaving SC out, it's only about 10-20 miles fewer (with straight lines...thank you, Google Earth!) The current "Pennsylvanian" ROW skirts state college by like 20 miles, and instead goes through Huntington. It's kind of silly.


I do agree train service would be fantastic for the place. Even just for getting some of those 107,000 football fans to the game!

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ctoocheck

Not really. Connecting SC, Harrisburg, Pgh, and Philly gives you a distance of about 270 miles. Leaving SC out, it's only about 10-20 miles fewer (with straight lines...thank you, Google Earth!)

Straight lines are not really relevant in this case. A detour through State College is going to add at least around 30 miles of actual route distance, on what should only be a 200 or so mile route between Harrisburg and Pittsburgh on a new ROW, 300 miles to Philly. Add in the time delay for the stop as well, and that detour simply isn't justified.

The current "Pennsylvanian" ROW skirts state college by like 20 miles, and instead goes through Huntington. It's kind of silly.

It doesn't "skirt" State College to go through Huntingdon. Huntingdon is around 25 miles south of State College, putting it much closer to a direct path from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh than State College.

I do agree train service would be fantastic for the place. Even just for getting some of those 107,000 football fans to the game!

If you had frequent high-speed service on a more direct route, you could run shuttle buses from the nearest stop to State College for big events like this.

[ctoocheck]

Add in the time delay for the stop as well, and that detour simply isn't justified.

Hm, well, I guess if the point is to create a non-stop high-speed service between Pgh and Harrisburg (and onto Philly) then maybe there is a case against stopping at S.C.

But I really think that if a new ROW/route would also serve other cities (Altoona, Johnstown, etc), it should most certainly stop in SC. If there was a ROW that went through, express non-stop trains cold pass through. Even if it's 30 miles out of the way, that's barely 15 minutes extra, maybe 20 it it stopped (if it was truly high-speed). I know it wouldn't be exactly a straight shot, but neither would any other route. You can't really say unless you know the exact route planned.

I think SC is a big enough place that it deserves service. I mean, (if I remember correctly) it is one of the few towns in PA that are growing and is pretty well off developmentally/economically. SC has its own airport. Providing rail service would at least be more "green", and more importantly, provide better connectivity for PSU students and the citizens of PA, whose university it is.

. Huntingdon is around 25 miles south of State College

If you take a peek at the map of the actual route through the state, the ROW makes a rough "M" around the center of the state. The peaks of the M are (west to east) Tyrone, Mt Union (Hungington is slightly west of there), and Lewistown. If you tried to add another point to this triangle to create a square, State College is pretty much it. Going north to State college then back south would most likely be a shorter distance than the path it takes currently via Huntington and Mt Union. It's kind of hard to explain in sentence form, hope that makes sense. Check it out on a map. If you have Google Earth you can even display the rail lines.

All things considered, I think State College is not too far out of the way, especially if you plan on making a new/improved route to serve other smaller cities besides Pgh, Harrisburg, and Philly.

So: maybe, if you only wanted the to having the fastset possible route between Harrisburg and Pgh, stopping in SC would not be the best, I think if increased service was also provided to other places like Johnstown and Altoona (which I think would be good), providiing it to SC would be only logical.



edit: Just checked the distances between Pgh and Harrisburg... on the Turnpike, the calculated distance would be about 205 miles.
The current Pennsylvanian route is about 250 miles according to Amtrak between Pgh and Harrisburg. If the path only skipped Huntington, I'd bet at least 10 miles could be shaved off. If it was straightened, probably more.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

That seems like a fair conclusion as well. Of course one could still ask whether going too far on the upgrade path will delay or prevent going down the new ROW path for political reasons. But that probably isn't the central question: the new ROW path will likely take a big shift of sentiment at the federal level toward funding a world-class HSR system, and whether or not that shift occurs probably doesn't depend on the quality of train service in Altoona.

It would be a nice problem to have. It's worth noting that spain, like Italy, runs slower, cheaper trains that make more stops in addition to its new high speed lines.
Also, I'd imagine any new route will roughly follow the route of the old South Pennsylvania (now the Turnpike) from Harrisburg.
Lastly, adding State College would be great but not at the expense of 70 miles. I believe there's even rail up there but unless the current ROW is upgraded first, there's no point in talking about it.

[ctoocheck]

you could run shuttle buses from the nearest stop to State College for big events like this.

Ah! Because we know how much people loooove shuttle buses. If you wanna take cars off the road, a shuttle bus is not an option, I'd say. Unless gas goes waaaayyy up.

[ferrarisnowday]

College students are a unique demographic, I think shuttle buses are a viable option.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ctoocheck

But I really think that if a new ROW/route would also serve other cities (Altoona, Johnstown, etc), it should most certainly stop in SC.

So basically with a true HSR route from Philly to Pittsburgh designed to serve markets further on as well, you might want two intermediary stops: Harrisburg, and one somewhere in the Altoona/Johnstown/State College area. The problem with choosing State College is that it is the most out of the way. I'd actually choose Altoona as the most logical location to serve that whole area.

Even if it's 30 miles out of the way, that's barely 15 minutes extra, maybe 20 it it stopped (if it was truly high-speed). I know it wouldn't be exactly a straight shot, but neither would any other route.

To be blunt, this is the sort of thinking that kills true HSR. 20 minutes here, 20 minutes there, and the next thing you know you aren't competing with direct air travel and direct driving between the big cities in the way that you originally planned. So you have to be very strict with the intermediary routing and stops to make sure you are adding, not subtracting, from the big picture.

I think SC is a big enough place that it deserves service.

Well, as I noted I think you could do bus service to connect to a frequent HSR service stopping nearby, and if you wanted to upgrade that connecting service to local rail, that might be fine too. You just can't start rerouting a line from Chicago to Philly to catch all the State Colleges along the way without killing the whole point.

Going north to State college then back south would most likely be a shorter distance than the path it takes currently via Huntington and Mt Union.

Perhaps, but a new ROW should be cutting all that nonsense out and getting this leg down to about 200 miles.

All things considered, I think State College is not too far out of the way, especially if you plan on making a new/improved route to serve other smaller cities besides Pgh, Harrisburg, and Philly.

Again, with true HSR you are going to want to pick just one stop at most and require everyone else in the area to feed into that stop. Given such a constraint, State College is just in the wrong place.

edit: Just checked the distances between Pgh and Harrisburg... on the Turnpike, the calculated distance would be about 205 miles.
The current Pennsylvanian route is about 250 miles according to Amtrak between Pgh and Harrisburg. If the path only skipped Huntington, I'd bet at least 10 miles could be shaved off. If it was straightened, probably more.

Exactly. With a new ROW, that should be down to around 200 miles. But going out of your way to get to State College is counterproductive once you contemplate a new ROW.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by ctoocheck

Ah! Because we know how much people loooove shuttle buses. If you wanna take cars off the road, a shuttle bus is not an option, I'd say. Unless gas goes waaaayyy up.

As I just noted, you could maybe go with connecting rail service instead. But I think shuttle buses might work better than you are suggesting provided the HSR service itself is good enough. So say you are talking an hour on a nice bus to Altoona but then a quick and reliable connection to a 40 minute train to Pittsburgh. That could compete with driving for convenience.

[Copanut]

I'm curious as to how many of you have riden on a train. I practically grew up on them in the 60's traveling from Pgh to Huntingdon. However, about 10 years ago I took my wife on what I thought would be a great time, Pgh to Altoona to catch a few ballgames. It was a terrible trip. 3 hours late leaving Pgh, we spent 1 hour on a sidling so a faster freight train could pass us. The return trip was 5 hours late leaving Altoona on Sunday. Since all our travel was at night due to being late we couldn't take in any scenery.

Maybe they've improved service in the last ten years, but it would take a lot of convincing for me to depend on the service.

[ferrarisnowday]

Maybe they've improved service in the last ten years, but it would take a lot of convincing for me to depend on the service.

They haven't. I've had 6 hour trips turn into 11 and 13 hours ones. I should also add that these "6 hour trips" only take 4 hours by car, and it costs anywhere from 10 - 90 dollars more roundtrip to use Amtrak. Then throw in some bizarre arrival/departure times and it just isn't worth it.