Why are the values of homes in the suburbs/urban areas of Pittsburgh the inverse of other cities? (Wilkinsburg: houses, transfer to)

[Fiddlehead]

Good advice. I am probably leaning closer to ten years residence, perhaps longer. I am essentially looking for a mid-career chapter in my career. I have spent nearly ten as a program manager; now I would like to reengage in science for a while. And also address some financial challenges, so price to income is very important. I would just want to keep long-term (10 yrs +) life options open if my wife is not happy or an aging parent in out west needs care,etc.

I think I would actually like to try to outsmart the market a bit. Meaning, to buy some place currently undervalued, and try to improve it and bring it up to value. My impression is that many incomers would naturally gravitate to Squirrel Hill, Regent Square, Shadyside, and pay a premium. That is what I did in Oregon, with moving to Ashland, but it simply has not been a good value.

Even on this board, it seems that folks often get herd mentality, and the prime places are seemingly always overvalued, at least in my limited experience. Folks rave about the schools, amenities in one place (Fox Chapel) over others, but I wonder if the differences warrant such strong preferences? All this said, my wife has pretty exacting tastes and would likely prefer the Fox Chapel, Squirrel Hill type places. Fun thing for me is to explore the places that are much nicer than their reputation would suggest. Hence my fascination with Pittsburgh in general, and all its neighborhoods, suburbs.

I have been following the discussion on Observatory Hill and other up and coming places (maybe) and trying to gage where things are the best value. So, I will be considering those areas along with the more obvious choices for folks with our demographics.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by Fiddlehead

Even on this board, it seems that folks often get herd mentality, and the prime places are seemingly always overvalued, at least in my limited experience. Folks rave about the schools, amenities in one place (Fox Chapel) over others, but I wonder if the differences warrant such strong preferences? All this said, my wife has pretty exacting tastes and would likely prefer the Fox Chapel, Squirrel Hill type places. Fun thing for me is to explore the places that are much nicer than their reputation would suggest. Hence my fascination with Pittsburgh in general, and all its neighborhoods, suburbs.

I've been bucking the herd mentality with my recommendations for Shaler and North Hills school districts.

[Fiddlehead]

Originally Posted by Hopes

I've been bucking the herd mentality with my recommendations for Shaler and North Hills school districts.

Appreciated too!

I personally think it is a dead heat in my mind between the north suburbs and eastside for what has looked most interesting to me. We have a very small, but nice home in a small town. Very walkable with access to rural areas. So, I really have no idea whether we would like a suburb or nice urban neighborhood with the parks, until I get a chance to see them. They both sound appealing in their own ways.

In my comment above, I was just mentioning that finding something nicer than expected would be a pleasant surprise. Out here, it is exceedingly hard to find something remotely nice that is not hyped to the hilt. The only people who consider this area a good deal are those coming from even more overpriced areas...and the realtors know it. That is my fear with some of the nicer areas of the burgh. But, I'll admit, it is probably laughable to be so worried there. Everything seems to be so much more sensibly priced.

I would add, it is also all about expectations. I would be delighted to own a conveniently located, attractive 1500 sf 3/2 home. That has been out of my reach for years here. However, if I get in a different mindset, I might be wanting a lot more there. I suppose I am as materialistic as the next middle class stiff.

So, many variables to ponder...

[BrianTH]

Pittsburgh is definitely a region full of hidden gems, many of which even most local people haven't heard of or have the wrong impression of or so on. So in that sense I think the quest to find something off the beaten path is perfectly reasonable.

That said, I do think Pittsburgh housing pricing tends to be pretty rational, meaning it is usually mostly explainable in terms of fundamental considerations like location, local amenities, infrastructure, condition, quality, schools, and so on.

So that is why my advice tends to be centered on a philosophy one might call "know thyself". In my view the real way to get a bargain in Pittsburgh (even by Pittsburgh standards) is to understand what you personally would really derive value from, and what you would not. You can then tailor your search to make sure you are paying for the things you care about, not the things to which you are indifferent, or might even dislike. And if you follow that approach, I think you should be pleased with what you can afford (or, conversely, with how little you need to pay to get what you really want).

And so I guess I would just suggest keeping an open mind even with respect to the more well-known and popular neighborhoods, because if they happen to be a good fit for you and you can afford something you like, I don't think you need to second-guess yourself too much. And similarly if you end up off the beaten path, that is also fine. Again, it is all about making sure you are getting a good fit for you, and my point is that whether or not that is a good fit for a lot of other people doesn't necessarily matter.

[robrobrob]

I've been bucking the herd mentality with my recommendations for Shaler and North Hills school districts.

Yeah, but when it was your money you bought in Fox Chapel.

I think you can put money into a house in Highland Park and make a profit. Just don't spend too much on the place to begin with. People always seem to view it as an affordable Shadyside.

[Hopes]

Since you feel equally torn between the areas, I recommend starting off with comparing the public education available for your children. The home in the less expensive area of the East End might not feed into one of the better city schools. Then again, Pittsburgh has a college scholarship available for students called the Pittsburgh Promise. That might not be relevant to you since you might not live here when your child graduates and paying for college isn't really a huge concern for professors since most universities offer free tution for dependents of faculty.

I'd just hate to see a family commit to an area in the city only to find out they aren't saving money if they later decide it's imparative to send children to private school. I'm not discouraging you from the city schools, only highly recommending that you meet with the superinendent when you come to Pittsburgh, and I would only extend an offer for a house after getting any promises made by the school district in writing. I mean everything in writing---including what elementary school your children would attend----because they could change zoning at any time.

As you know, there is a lot of hype for the East End neighborhoods. Just remember that many affluent people send their children to private schools. Middle and upper class families have success with the public schools, but they mostly live in the East End neighborhoods with the most hype. And I'd say, when it comes to the East End, hype does matter when it comes to city schools. Don't forget that quite a few people who promote the East End on City-Data don't even have children.

That said, there are free and lower cost education options within and outside of Pittsburgh public schools. The school district has magnet schools, but admission is based on a lottery system. There is an elementary charter school in the East End area near Frick Park and City High located downtown for high school students. At your own expense, the Catholic schools are relatively affordable for K-8, but private high school is costly. The University of Pittsburgh has Falk Labratory School which I feel is relatively affordable at below 10k, but faculty might receive a reduced rate. Admission to Falk is based on ability to pay and, strangely, parents' social recommendations. Fear not, admission to the best private schools are not based on ability to pay. If your children are high achievers, you could get the best education money can buy without paying full price at Shadyside Academy and Winchester Thurston, both K-12.

I'm just stressing the importance of understanding all of the education options prior to making an offer on a house in the city. This is not a situation where you buy a house and then ask, "Where will our children go to school?" Make sure you KNOW before you make an offer. This is no small task. I don't even fully understand the city schools, and I've lived in Pittsburgh most of my life. It's wise to start your research immediately---leave no stone unturned.

[greg42]

Regarding years, I have to say, I'm at 6 years ago in my house and don't feel assured of break even if I tried to sell now. I might be overly pessimistic, but it'll feel a little better if things pick up over the next year or so. I don't think I'd have to sell for less than I paid, but I've ended up doing work that more preserves the value than increases it. Things have worn out or are close, like furnace, deck, roof and a drainage issue in the yard that was not evident in July and August when I purchased became prevalent in the falls and springs, progressively getting worse until last year I spent thousands to deal with it.

Figuring all that in it'll be harder to break even. We'll see. There are a lot of variables to consider when trying to figure that out. Was it still a better deal than renting? Probably.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

Yeah, but when it was your money you bought in Fox Chapel.

I don't live in Fox Chapel. I live in Hampton, which I highly recommend, but it's a farther commute for the OP inito Oakland.

Plus, Shaler and North Hills have relatively easy access to public transportation that goes directly from the North Hills to Oakland.

Keep up with my 4,326 posts, Rob!

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by greg42

Regarding years, I have to say, I'm at 6 years ago in my house and don't feel assured of break even if I tried to sell now. I might be overly pessimistic, but it'll feel a little better if things pick up over the next year or so. I don't think I'd have to sell for less than I paid, but I've ended up doing work that more preserves the value than increases it. Things have worn out or are close, like furnace, deck, roof and a drainage issue in the yard that was not evident in July and August when I purchased became prevalent in the falls and springs, progressively getting worse until last year I spent thousands to deal with it.

Figuring all that in it'll be harder to break even. We'll see. There are a lot of variables to consider when trying to figure that out. Was it still a better deal than renting? Probably.

Those maintenance expenses can be applied towards your capital gains tax. I hope you saved your receipts.

[Fiddlehead]

BrianTH: Very true. Know thyself is very good. It seems to fit many places. For example, our current town is definitely out of our desired price range. We have enjoyed it because we love the compactness and hiking at our doorsteps, which means a lot to us. On the other hand, we must compete for housing with upper crust San Fran/DC/Seattle types who move here for the Shakespeare Festival. Now, I love the Bard as much as the next guy, but I have gone about 3 times in seven years. Likewise the touristy downtown is nice too, but I could easily live 10 miles from it without missing it at all. I am just not into buying $400 Shintu fountains and $250 clogs.

I suppose the only negative to the general "know thyself" model model could be on resale. For instance, I might love to build an Taos-style earthship out of old car tires, cow dung, and pop bottles, but my impeccable eco-avenger tastes might not be shared....;]

Robrobob: I have also checked out Highland Park. Very nice homes around there. Is the hiking or jogging there anything remotely like Frick or Shenley? On the other hand, could one blaze north to North Park easier from that location? Not looking strictly for profit, but if we need to move inside ten years, it would be good to see a positive trajectory, or ideally, an unusually low price to value ratio in a general sense.

Anyone: While I am at it,anyone know anything about Observatory Hill. It is next to Riverview Park,which sounds nice, but how would be the commute to Pitt/Oakland from there? Public transit options?