CMU ranked #4 in the world in computer science (Carnegie, California: how much, colleges)

[JoeLeaphorn]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

They did it by looking at citations, publications in Nature and Science, and Nobels/Fields.

Citations are not a measure of research quality any more than the number of Google hits are an indication of who are the best actors. In fact, this has been studied and there is no clear correlation.

As for Nobels, CMU has 20 affiliations as opposed to the University of Pittsburgh's 5, and Columbia has 92, not that this indicates anything, either.

I am not saying that Pitt does not do quality research. What I am saying is that, in many cases, you can't determine the quality of the research until years after the research findings have been published (and verified).

Success at getting grants is not an indicator of quality.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Katiana

Are you guys implying it did not exist before that?

First and foremost, I think Hopes and I are in agreement we never intended this topic to be taken quite this seriously.

Second, I'm not sure what ramifications the merger with the Mellon Institute had in terms of CMU's research programs and funding--it could have been a major or minor change, I really don't know. But I think it is probably fair to trace their rise as a major research university no farther back than 1912, since that is when they changed focus from being a vocational school for the working class (think Triangle Tech).

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by JoeLeaphorn

In fact, this has been studied and there is no clear correlation.

Those studies sound interesting--I'd appreciate a citation or link.

[fleetiebelle]

If CMU says it was founded in 1900, I'd say it was founded in 1900. CMU did not spring up from nothing fully formed in 1967. Are you guys implying it did not exist before that?

And actually 1900 is a bit of a fudge. Andrew Carnegie wrote a letter to the mayor of Pittsburgh in 1900 promising to found a trade school in Pittsburgh, but there was no place to attend classes until 1903, and the first class did not graduate until 1906. And like others had mentioned, Carnegie wanted a school to train working class people in a trade; he had no intention of his institution being compared alongside uppity ivory tower universities. Carnegie died in 1919, and that's probably when the trustees felt they could more easily stray from Carnegie's path. If you guys want more info, I do my shift in the CMU archives later this afternoon and can look up exact figures.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by fleetiebelle

And actually 1900 is a bit of a fudge. Andrew Carnegie wrote a letter to the mayor of Pittsburgh in 1900 promising to found a trade school in Pittsburgh, but there was no place to attend classes until 1903, and the first class did not graduate until 1906. And like others had mentioned, Carnegie wanted a school to train working class people in a trade; he had no intention of his institution being compared alongside uppity ivory tower universities. Carnegie died in 1919, and that's probably when the trustees felt they could more easily stray from Carnegie's path. If you guys want more info, I do my shift in the CMU archives later this afternoon and can look up exact figures.

That is interesting. I would add, many colleges were founded with the intent of vocational training, especially teacher's colleges, and have evolved over time. Many other colleges were founded for specific purposes and have elvolved. For example, my daughter went to St. Olaf College in Minnesota, which was founded to prepare people for church work, eg pre-seminary, teaching, music, etc. Obviously, that's not all it's doing today. I'd guess the story is similar at most colleges, especially private colleges.

I would be interested in some information about the merger of Carnegie Tech and the Mellon Institute.

[Copanut]

Kat, maybe you can relate to this. My wife got her masters in Public Health at CMU back in the 90's. A three credit course cost more than her entire tuition at a nursing school in Ohio. But it sure looks good on her permanent record card, whether it's ranked #4 or not.

[fleetiebelle]

I would be interested in some information about the merger of Carnegie Tech and the Mellon Institute.

I do know offhand that originally the new university was going to be called Carnegie University. We have letterhead and a logo with the new name on it. I'll have to check at what point in the process the Mellon name was inserted.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Kat, maybe you can relate to this. My wife got her masters in Public Health at CMU back in the 90's. A three credit course cost more than her entire tuition at a nursing school in Ohio. But it sure looks good on her permanent record card, whether it's ranked #4 or not.

Yes, I can relate. I have no argument that CMU is not just a good school, but an excellent school. I also don't think it much matters whether they or any other school is ranked # this, that, or the other. There's not a lot of difference between #1 and say, #5 in most of these rankings.

[BrianTH]

It is true that many older liberal arts colleges in particular often began with a more limited, often religious, mission.

However, MIT was specifically founded as a research university on the German model. The Stanfords also specifically founded Stanford to be a full-blown research university that would rival the East Coast universities like Harvard.

Perhaps most interestingly, the 1868 date Katiana gave for the founding of Cal-Berkeley was actually a merger between older institutions, the private (Christian) College of California and the state-run Agricultural, Mining, and Mechanical Arts College. As the story goes, the private college had land but had run out of funding, and the state college had public funding but no land. In any event, they were merged with the specific purpose of creating a complete public university for California.

So I would again suggest that Katiana's dates (including one merger case) all best correspond in CMU's case with no earlier than 1912, the point at which Carnegie's vocational school began its transformation into a modern research university.

[Tombstoner]

Originally Posted by Copanut

Kat, maybe you can relate to this. My wife got her masters in Public Health at CMU back in the 90's. A three credit course cost more than her entire tuition at a nursing school in Ohio. But it sure looks good on her permanent record card, whether it's ranked #4 or not.

When did CMU start a MPH??? Are you sure it wasn't Central Michigan U?

And just to beat the horse gasping for air...I think schools are probably more justifiably "aged" by the programs/disciplines in question. CMU has one of the world's oldest computer science programs. And, yes, as everyone is making clear, none of this is terribly serious and rankings are inherently subjective if not bogus.