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Spent a lot of time searching the forum for references to the North Hills and South Hills, but pulling it all together has been difficult because these terms don't specifically define the municipalities within them. HOPES (and some others) have done a great job in comparing the North and South Hills using those terms, but I'm hoping this thread will continue with more direct reference to specific localities.
Wikipedia defines the NORTH HILLS as: The independent suburban municipalities that will be and are always included in the North Hills are Ross Township, Borough of West View, Shaler Township, West Deer Township, Frazer Township, East Deer Township, Fawn Township, Harrison Township, Franklin Park, Marshall Township, Bradford Woods, McCandless Township, Hampton Township, Pine Township, Tarentum, Richland Township, Borough of Fox Chapel, Indiana Township, O'Hara Township, Bellevue, Springdale Township, Borough of Springdale, Harmar Township, Reserve Township, Millvale, Etna, Sharpsburg, Aspinwall, Blawnox, Verona, Oakmont, Cheswick, and Ohio Township.
Wikipedia defines the SOUTH HILLS as: The South Hills is a term generally used to collectively describe the southern suburbs of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and the neighborhoods in the City of Pittsburgh south of the South Side Slopes. The City neighborhoods include Knoxville, Mt. Oliver, Allentown, Banksville, Beechview, Brookline, and Overbrook. Two suburban municipalities that are included in the South Hills are Bethel Park and Mt. Lebanon, as well as the boroughs of Castle Shannon, Dormont, and Green Tree. The South Hills also includes the townships of Baldwin, Collier, Peters, Scott, South Park, and Upper St. Clair, plus the boroughs of Baldwin (not to be confused with the previously-mentioned township of Baldwin), Brentwood, Bridgeville, Heidelberg, Whitehall, Pleasant Hills, Jefferson Hills, and West Mifflin. All of these places are located within Allegheny County, with the exception of Peters Township, which is in Washington County.
Broad comparisons between North and South are manageable but become more problematic when trying to identify specific municipalities that conform to the broad comparisons. Any thoughts on how best to approach this challenge?
Broad comparisons between North and South are manageable but become more problematic when trying to identify specific municipalities that conform to the broad comparisons. Any thoughts on how best to approach this challenge?
There's one broad comparison that applies to both larger regions. That's congestion of the roads and the open space aspect. Once someone decides what type of area they want, we zero in on specific townships within the larger regions.
Sometimes the congestion isn't an issue. Sometimes people come here wanting only a walkable town feel in the suburbs with shopping and restaurants within walking distance from the homes. Then we list the specific neighborhoods of both the North Hills and the South Hills.
Sometimes people dont' work downtown but in an area where living in the South Hills or the North Hills would only make sense. Then we help figure ot which township is best.
Basically, we try to pull out of people what THEY WANT and then we zero in on specific townships.
I personally try to give options that are different from the usual suggestions. For instance, Fox Chapel, Mt. Lebo and Sewickly are constantly recommended. They are townships with significant wealth in the North, South and West. But everyone can't live in those townships! We owe it to people to give a broader scope of recommendations. Not everyone is wealthy!
I've written some fairly extensive posts (back in 2007) about specific townships. Every now and then, someone resurrects one. My 2007 Shaler description was ressurrected just a few months ago and somene who moved there posted to affirm that it's just what I said it would be. I've had people send me PMs thanking me---because they ended up buying a house in Shaler based on the post. I'll try to find it for you. Maybe the best thing is to start threads on each area and have everyone write essays for the townships they know. That way people can search via thread titles, not just North Hills and South Hills.
By the way, I'm sure you already noticed that each area is further confused by the fact that there are actual townships called North Hills and South Hills in each region that's called North Hills and South Hills.
If you are looking for something specific, let us know.
I drive to Cranberry a few times a week during off lunch and off rush hour times. I find it to be congested at 10am, 3pm---anytime but 5am. Yeah, I'm up there that early sometimes. I know how to take the back ways. I often cut through the industrial park to avoid the congestion in the retail area. Regardless, it's still congested for anyone who relies on the area for shopping. You can't avoid the retail area if you are actually shopping!
The other thing is to be careful about neighborhood selection. You could end up with one long two-lane road as the only access to your neighborhood. I'd simply die if Freedom Road was my only way in and out of my neighborhood. It's just a two lane road with lots of traffic and lights----housing plans on one side and industrial warehouses on the other. Even if you chose to live in a different neighborhood, you can't avoid these congested areas children end up friends living on the other side of the township.
Hopes -- I used to ride my bike up and down Freedom Rd ALL THE TIME. There were a couple who owned two horses on Freedom Rd that I used to feed carrots. We used to ride the snowmobile for hours on that patch of land that was owned by the state -- which is now a drug store and a diner and bank......
And there used to be this great swimming hole that was left over from the strip mines -- there's now a housing development there.
Hopes -- I used to ride my bike up and down Freedom Rd ALL THE TIME. There were a couple who owned two horses on Freedom Rd that I used to feed carrots. We used to ride the snowmobile for hours on that patch of land that was owned by the state -- which is now a drug store and a diner and bank......
And there used to be this great swimming hole that was left over from the strip mines -- there's now a housing development there.
I can't believe what they've done to it....
Cranberry used to be where Pittsburgher's had summer camps! You'd be run over riding a bike today! It is a shame!
(not going to go crazy with quoting here, response to that post)
I guess perhaps one of the things I don't see is the difference between another 10 minutes or so when you're already driving a non-trivial distance. Drive 15 minutes or 25 minutes, hardly makes a difference. If it's 10 minutes or less from the closer place, then maybe it would be different. The amount of the difference tolerance goes up as the distance goes up. I mean, drive 5 hours or 6 hours, or even 10 hours, what's the difference? It's a long drive. So, drive 20 minutes vs 30, or 30 minutes vs 45, on a low-traffic day when it's not about commuting to work over and over (that's a special case), I don't think it matters, esp for a once-a-year event. If it's drive 30 minutes vs 10 minutes, then maybe you've got something. It took me about 30 minutes (perhaps a tick more) to drive from home to Shadyside today (another beautiful day, no denying it, if a little chilly at first). My drive to the city does not originate from or go through Cranberry, but the distance is probably similar and the major highway is the same once I get out there. In fact, I may have a few extra minutes vs some places in Cranberry, but for a good average it would be about equal.
Anyway, ultimately it doesn't matter. At this point I was just going through the motions because I saw a few things noted that I don't think are actually true about the Cranberry area. I used it as an example and because I am there often. It's one example, a place I know about, the costs can be low, it can be convenient. As far as events going on in the place, to a certain degree I think it's hard to know every detail until you actually do live there. But then, I will grant I never made that a priority. The area in which I live (not Cranberry, remember) is practically rural in that respect. It's a little easier now as the towns get better at doing their web sites. Cranberry's is good: Cranberry Township - Official Website Would you believe, they even have concerts in the summer? Who knew. In other words, it's a little farther from the city, but it does have some of its own park amenities even if it's farther from places that people further south happen to be closer to. But as I said, it doesn't matter. My point was never to suggest the place was ideal for the OP. It was just to make the OP aware of one possible location. It went way down in my eyes for this potential when there weren't many 1+ acre homes available in the listings. That was a bad assumption on my part that there would be more in that area. Either there aren't actually more at all, they all cost more these days since so many people moved there, or fewer people are selling there.
I'll continue to argue the traffic thing, because it just isn't true in my experience, and it's a lot of experience over the last 6+ years. I've not found Cranberry congested in the middays I've been there (yes, middle of a regular weekday, different times), nor typical weeknights after about 6 or 6:30. Weekends can get a little heavy in the middle of the day but also tend to thin in the evening. As an aside, because we really can't compare directly given that presumably one doesn't need the mall all the time and Cranberry doesn't have as much, today I went to Ross Park. Holy crap. People waiting to get out of there (not in, but out, at least by the time we got there around 4:00 or so) must have been waiting half an hour just to get back onto McKnight, judging by the line up. It's pretty insane that after doing renovations that cut the parking they didn't address the smaller amount of parking that would be available! There is routinely not enough parking at busy times now. Like I said, a big indoor mall is a congestion magnet, and that one draws even more than the others because of some of the stores that are only there. The big traffic lineup was mainly for people trying to go south, back towards the city. My experience with that area is that it's always congested. Very late on a weeknight I've found some congestion-free McKnight, but I've never found it in the middle of the day or regular evening or morning. I've been there all those times. (Experience with McKnight goes back well over a decade, almost the entire time I've been in the Pittsburgh area, really.)
Indeed, to take it over a notch, my experience with a certain shopping section of Rt 8 is that it's always congested. But I doubt I've ever been there on a weekday. This would be middle of weekends. I've been through there a few times in the last several years, and it's pretty well always like that. (Don't ask me to locate it precisely, I can picture the road vaguely but not exactly the places that are in these spots.) But I'm not going to say that's always congested. I'm going to assume I've hit the worst of it on a bad day.
So I would conclude on congestion that either a) we have different definitions and tolerances of congestion or more likely b) we tolerate better the areas we're more often in and are most familiar with.
Finally, I don't know when I'm going to do this, but clearly I need a new experience driving from city places to the Rt 8 corridor. One person I considered an outlier. Two people I know of now give what in my own (limited) experience are fairly optimistic drive times. One is my coworker who drives to the same office downtown, and one is Hopes who says it takes 20 minutes from her place to Schenley Park. In my experience, that 20 minutes sounds about 10 minutes optimistic. In my real experience. It always feels long when I do it, longer than that, even with low traffic. And then I'm plotting routes over the river, etc and wondering just how it's possible. Another example of just being used to the familiar places? I don't know. But I'm curious to check, sometime. My drive time to the Point (not the same, I get that, but it's the one I've checked and have ingrained) is 25 minutes, totally realistic, repeated numerous times at non-rush hours or weekends.
I like Plum Boro, Has a rural feel in certain areas and and is very close to many shopping areas. Not to far from Parkway east and rt 28 for a commute down town or as us Pittsburghers say, Dahn Tahn.
How can you question how long it takes to get from Hampton to Schenley Park when you claim it took 30 minutes to get from your house to Shadyside?
Hampton is halfway inbetween the East End and your house! Actually, it's closer to the East End than it is to your area.
If it takes you 30 minutes, either my 20 minutes is a conservative estimate or your 30 minutes is an exaggeration.
It's not halfway between. You're neglecting the fact that I don't have to go anywhere near Hampton and the speeds I get to use are significantly higher (65 or so for most of the way). On I-79, the Parkway North, Veterans bridge, Blvd of the Allies on top of the bluff there are no traffic lights (and there are precisely 2 between here and I-79, and the one from the office park entrance doesn't count). There is not heavy traffic on a Saturday morning through Oakland. You wait for one red light on Forbes, maybe, and the rest are green once you match speed. I didn't time it precisely, but then neither does anyone who gives such drive times. It's a rough estimate and often just based on feel and memory having done it enough times. The only time I've ever precisely looked at is the no-traffic time from here to downtown.
So I have a rough feel from yesterday, and also a point of reference. The rough feel is "half an hour or so". The reference is it takes 25 minutes to get to downtown, shave off a few for not going down and over the Ft Duquesne Bridge, add several to get over the Vets and across Oakland, okay, maybe it's 32 or 33 minutes.
Anyway, you read me wrong. I'm not questioning your time. I'm questioning my previous experience with driving between Rt 8 area and points in the city. As I said, one person telling me what seemed to me unusually small times sounds like exaggeration. Two people from over there reporting smaller than seemed possible (to me) times means that I'm probably wrong. I am wondering how I got that wrong impression which is why I want to look at it myself. My memory is somehow stuck on this, apparently. It's obviously not some critical high priority, and I don't spend a lot of time driving around on weekends as I once did in my earlier days here. But at some point I'd like to get a feel for that drive again directly.
I also wonder why my coworker doesn't do more stuff in the city when it's so close. What a waste.
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In my experience, that 20 minutes sounds about 10 minutes optimistic. In my real experience. It always feels long when I do it, longer than that, even with low traffic. And then I'm plotting routes over the river, etc and wondering just how it's possible. Another example of just being used to the familiar places? I don't know. But I'm curious to check, sometime. My drive time to the Point (not the same, I get that, but it's the one I've checked and have ingrained) is 25 minutes, totally realistic, repeated numerous times at non-rush hours or weekends.
