Nothing Inbetween (Pittsburgh, Ross Township, Washington: apartment, to rent, chapel)

[CaptainObvious]

This kind-of came up in another thread, and has been bugging me for some time now...

Why is it that Pittsburgh seems to be full of either Million-Dollar mansions and overpriced Hummer Homes or falling-down garbage shells in the ghetto? We got an abundance of both, with very little inbetween. Don't fire off a million posts citing "This neighborhood has a lot of nice average homes" or "That neighborhood is moderately priced". Yes, I know, those communities exist. Still, it seems there are very few moderately priced homes that are well-maintained and in nice neighborhoods. I grew-up in the midwest where (using today's dollars) $150,000 would buy you a very nice 3 or 4 bedroom home in a very well maintained neighborhood where the homeowners took pride in the way their community looked and was kept-up. Around here, even in the "average" neighborhoods, it seems there is a lack of this pride and commitment to keeping up the community in general. You've either got to shell out 3/4 of a million bucks to live in a "nice" spot, or you can go drop $60,000 on a fixer-upper in a run-down neighborhood. What gives? You don't have to be rich to mow your lawn or weed your flower beds. You don't have to be a CEO to patch a crack in a driveway or replace a rail on a porch. How come "average" folks don't care around here? Even the poor people in my old hometown managed to cut the grass and stick a flower in and old jar out on the porch...they didn't have money, but they were good people that cared about their property and the way the were perceived...they had PRIDE. Yet time and time again in Western PA I see blahness all over the place with small meccas of wealth and opulence scattered about. Granted, it is easier to get things done with some bills in your pocket, but caring doesn't cost a dime.

WHERE'S THE INBETWEEN??????????????? For those of us that can't afford Fox Chapel or Sewickley and don't want to live in McKees Rocks or East Liberty.

[pghlibrarian]

Originally Posted by CaptainObvious

This kind-of came up in another thread, and has been bugging me for some time now...

Why is it that Pittsburgh seems to be full of either Million-Dollar mansions and overpriced Hummer Homes or falling-down garbage shells in the ghetto? We got an abundance of both, with very little inbetween. Don't fire off a million posts citing "This neighborhood has a lot of nice average homes" or "That neighborhood is moderately priced". Yes, I know, those communities exist. Still, it seems there are very few moderately priced homes that are well-maintained and in nice neighborhoods. I grew-up in the midwest where (using today's dollars) $150,000 would buy you a very nice 3 or 4 bedroom home in a very well maintained neighborhood where the homeowners took pride in the way their community looked and was kept-up. Around here, even in the "average" neighborhoods, it seems there is a lack of this pride and commitment to keeping up the community in general. You've either got to shell out 3/4 of a million bucks to live in a "nice" spot, or you can go drop $60,000 on a fixer-upper in a run-down neighborhood. What gives? You don't have to be rich to mow your lawn or weed your flower beds. You don't have to be a CEO to patch a crack in a driveway or replace a rail on a porch. How come "average" folks don't care around here? Even the poor people in my old hometown managed to cut the grass and stick a flower in and old jar out on the porch...they didn't have money, but they were good people that cared about their property and the way the were perceived...they had PRIDE. Yet time and time again in Western PA I see blahness all over the place with small meccas of wealth and opulence scattered about. Granted, it is easier to get things done with some bills in your pocket, but caring doesn't cost a dime.

WHERE'S THE INBETWEEN??????????????? For those of us that can't afford Fox Chapel or Sewickley and don't want to live in McKees Rocks or East Liberty.

I think what you may be seeing is the tangible proof of the widening gap between the extremely wealthy and the extremely poor that seems to be happening all over the country. The middle class in the USA is becoming as rare as a passenger pigeon, and it doesn't look like there will be any improvement on the horizon.

In Western PA, you had quite a few "blue collar" areas that were primarily inhabited by the middle class of the last century. As the manufacturing and industrial jobs that kept them employed dried up, many fled this area for greener pastures leaving their well maintained but small working class homes to abandonment or those with less means to keep them up.

I think the upkeep of neighborhoods and the widening gap between McMansions and sh*tholes as far as housing stock is all interrelated.

[JoeP]

Uh Norths Hills, South Hills and eastern and western burbs for that matter.

There are decent homes homes to be had in the city, but the homes are very, very old, so yeah you're going to have to spend money on them, but try buying a comparably Southside home in DC, Philly or Boston....

[claremarie]

WHERE'S THE INBETWEEN???????????????

Ross Township. And much of the older parts of North Hills -- the neighborhoods built before the 1980s. McCandless, Franklin Park, Shaler, West View (parts of it, anyhow), Hampton. I see extremely reasonably priced homes every time we visit both sets of parents, who still live in Ross. Homes under $200K (or just over). In fact, my parents' neighborhood of 60+ year old homes looks much better now than it did when I was growing up. People have added porches and decks, and the landscaping is much more extensive and nicely maintained than when my brothers were in the grass-cutting business.
A solidly middle class family, earning under $100K a year, can live much better in Pittsburgh than in many other cities. Really, I couldn't disagree more with your observations.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by claremarie

A solidly middle class family, earning under $100K a year, can live much better in Pittsburgh than in many other cities.

I completely agree with you on this issue, claremarie. There's more inbetween neighorhoods in the greater Pittsburgh area than anything else.

[CaptainObvious]

I would love to hear what people think they can actually AFFORD. "Under $100,000 income and a $200,000 house" mentioned above as reasonable...I'd love to see the details in that mortgage. My household makes slightly less than $100,000 and we're be pushing it to afford a $140,000 mortgage. That's with no debt and very disciplined spending habits. Of course I could pull some interest-only crap and stop contributing the max to my 401(k), but even then we're only talking $160,000 max. Who are you people affording these Hummer Homes? Do you make 10 times what I do or do you just live in your 3 car garage with no furniture? Seriously, I know its personal, but I'd love to hear what people think is affordable nowadays... Are people really AFFORDING $300,000 McMansions, or are they eyeball deep in debt? Are you one of the McMansion owners? If so, I'd love to hear how you're doing it. My guess is most people living in $200,000+ homes couldn't afford the home they live in if they had to take a mortgage out on it today...Ahhh, the wonders of the housing bubble.

The Captain

[CaptainObvious]

Ross Township. And much of the older parts of North Hills -- the neighborhoods built before the 1980s

Ok, where is the NEW inbetween then? I could go to Atlanta and buy a 3 bedroom, 1600 sq. foot place in a nice part of town for $160,000. And it was built 4 years ago, not 24. You don't see that around here.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by CaptainObvious

I would love to hear what people think they can actually AFFORD. "Under $100,000 income and a $200,000 house" mentioned above as reasonable...I'd love to see the details in that mortgage. My household makes slightly less than $100,000 and we're be pushing it to afford a $140,000 mortgage.

That's with no debt and very disciplined spending habits. Of course I could pull some interest-only crap and stop contributing the max to my 401(k), but even then we're only talking $160,000 max. Who are you people affording these Hummer Homes? Do you make 10 times what I do or do you just live in your 3 car garage with no furniture?

Seriously, I know its personal, but I'd love to hear what people think is affordable nowadays... Are people really AFFORDING $300,000 McMansions, or are they eyeball deep in debt? Are you one of the McMansion owners? If so, I'd love to hear how you're doing it. My guess is most people living in $200,000+ homes couldn't afford the home they live in if they had to take a mortgage out on it today...Ahhh, the wonders of the housing bubble.

Let me help you put this into perspective. My girlfriend lives in a very high cost of living area of Maryland---between Baltimore and Washington DC. Her house is worth 400k. They bought it 2 years ago for 300k (pretty similar to today's mortages because their credit wasn't perfect). They had a decent down payment because they made a nice profit on their previous home. So even though they probably mortgaged only 250k, they have since taken out a 2nd and 3rd mortgage and they will need to sell their current home for 350k to break even. That means that they are basically holding a 350k mortgage.

Her husband earns just under six figures. She's a stay-at-home mother. They have three teenagers (two in braces!). They also have two brand new vehicles with car payments, a RV and a built in swimming pool (added after they bought the house). Their kids all participate in expensive sports and play musical instruments. They go out to eat 2 to 4 times a month for dinner as a family. Money is sometimes tight but they always manage to make ends meet. They ALWAYS get a HUGE income tax refund each year because deduct all the mortage interest and property taxes (and trust me, property taxes are just as high were they live as in Pittsburgh).

Oh, did I forget to mention that 400k only buys a modest ranch house where she lives? That's right. Her family of 5 is living in less than 1,350 square feet.

You can definitely get a lot more house for less your money here in Pittsburgh.

[Hopes]

Originally Posted by CaptainObvious

Ross Township. And much of the older parts of North Hills -- the neighborhoods built before the 1980s

Ok, where is the NEW inbetween then? I could go to Atlanta and buy a 3 bedroom, 1600 sq. foot place in a nice part of town for $160,000. And it was built 4 years ago, not 24. You don't see that around here.

They're out there. You just have to look.

Here's one that's 3 years old for 175k in Shaler: REALTOR.com: Find a Home - Listing Detail

[claremarie]

My household makes slightly less than $100,000 and we're be pushing it to afford a $140,000 mortgage. That's with no debt and very disciplined spending habits. Of course I could pull some interest-only crap and stop contributing the max to my 401(k), but even then we're only talking $160,000 max.

Payments on a 140K 30-year mortgage at 7% would be about $950. $160K bumps it up to $1064. That's less than what many people pay to rent a small apartment.

Ok, where is the NEW inbetween then? I could go to Atlanta and buy a 3 bedroom, 1600 sq. foot place in a nice part of town for $160,000. And it was built 4 years ago, not 24. You don't see that around here.

Oh, you want NEW? That's a different story. Older cities like Pittsburgh don't have much new construction, except in the far-out suburbs. You can't compare Pittsburgh to Atlanta, which is a much more recently developed city.

One of the reasons Pittsburgh has so much affordable housing is that most of its housing stock was built long before buyers expected to have 4 bedrooms and 2.5 baths, master suites with walk-in closets, a 2-car garage, and gourmet kitchens with attached great rooms. There are MANY neighborhoods filled with all-brick 3 BR homes, but they don't have all the bells and whistles that many homebuyers have come to see as essential, and they are priced accordingly.