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On an individual level, sure. But we are talking about trends over time and involving many people.
While I am not a fanatic about this "best schools" issue, if you have a kid in school now, you want a decent school for him/her.
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There are lots of nice walkable neighborhoods in central locations in various cities. The issue is how affordable they are.
1. I was responding to a statement that Pittsburgh is "unique" in having nice walkable neighborhoods. It is not.
2. Aside from Portland (from what I've heard), the cities I named are all "affordable".
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Again, there have been many surveys and studies done on this subject, so it really isn't a question of anecdotal evidence.
Perhaps you weren't around in the late 60s/early 70s when we Baby Boomers were young adults. There were plenty of surveys then showing that we all were going to move back to the cities. Didn't happen. We'll see if it happens this time. From what my kids' friends/acquaintances and my friends' kids are doing, I'd say it's not a huge trend.
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Changing trends threaten a lot of entrenched attitudes and economic interests.
Are you talking about me? Sorry to disappoint if so. I was part of this back to the city movement myself as a young adult, I do not care where anyone else wants to live, and I have no economic interest in suburban land development, nor does my spouse or anyone in my family.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-20-2010 at 08:39 AM..
Reason: add a few words
Agreed, though I really don't care about the "trashy" people. My DD used to take the bus home from school 1.6 miles away. I'm talking city bus here, not school bus. It took 45 min. portal to portal. For someone running a household, working, etc, that would be a lot of time to spend on a trip that is about 10 min. max by car.
That's my thing with taking a bus also. My drive to and from Duquesne is only a 15 minute (25 minutes at most) car ride. I'd be amazed if it took me less than 35 minutes with walking and the bus having to stop at every stop (maybe connect 09 will make bus rides more tolerable for me and I'm not trying to sound lazy with the walking it just takes time). When I'm done for the job I just want to get home as fast as I can and that would be driving; despite the stress.
Perhaps you weren't around in the late 60s/early 70s when we Baby Boomers were young adults. There were plenty of surveys then showing that we all were going to move back to the cities. Didn't happen. We'll see if it happens this time. From what my kids' friends/acquaintances and my friends' kids are doing, I'd say it's not a huge trend.
When you have no kids right out of college or when you start out it doesn't really matter where you live as long as it's cool and schools def don't matter. Once you have kids though your priorities change and I know a few couples who have moved even though they like the neighborhood because the just they feed into are just bad and they don't want their kids in that. And about the school comment, when you do have kids who are already in school what the schools will be doesn't matter you just want the best and for now those are still suburban school districts (unless you are fortunate enough to get into CAPA, City High and Alderdice) or paying for private school (which many don't want to do since they are already paying school district taxes).
While I am not a fanatic about this "best schools" issue, if you have a kid in school now, you want a decent school for him/her.
Sure, but there is more than one way to skin that cat (besides buying into an expensive school district). And you can also look ahead. For that matter, you have time once your kids are in school--say you are in private for kindergarten, you might work on local school issues in time for high school. And so on.
So things can and do change. Maybe not quickly enough for all parents, but that isn't enough to stop the process entirely as long as the desire is there.
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I was responding to a statement that Pittsburgh is "unique" in having nice walkable neighborhoods.
No, you were not. You quoted a statement from alleghenyangel, and a statement from me, and both of us specifically said what was relatively unique was how "affordable" those neighborhoods were in Pittsburgh.
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Aside from Portland (from what I've heard), the cities I named are all "affordable".
That isn't the issue. The issue is specifically nice walkable neighborhoods in the central core, and whether or not THOSE are affordable. I looked at the Denver area once not too long ago, and such neighborhoods were pretty pricey.
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Perhaps you weren't around in the late 60s/early 70s when we Baby Boomers were young adults. There were plenty of surveys then showing that we all were going to move back to the cities.
No, I wasn't around (well, not to be aware of such things), but I have seen the cohort studies showing changing attitudes over time. It isn't just about urbanism, but about crime, race, the environment, and so on. Attitudes have in fact shifted, particularly at the point young people today are contemplating starting families.
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From what my kids' friends/acquaintances and my friends' kids are doing, I'd say it's not a huge trend.
Again, this isn't an anecdotal issue. We know central core areas in many cities are experiencing "baby booms", meaning rapidly increasing young child populations. In fact, there is evidence this is already happening in Pittsburgh too.
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Are you talking about me?
Not necessarily. There are just a lot of people out there who have paid a lot of money, or made other compromises in their life, to buy into nice suburbs with good schools. These shifting trends threaten their economic interests, and indeed call into question the sacrifices they have made. So there is a natural resistance to accepting the wealth of empirical data supporting the existence of this trend.
That's my thing with taking a bus also. My drive to and from Duquesne is only a 15 minute (25 minutes at most) car ride. I'd be amazed if it took me less than 35 minutes with walking and the bus having to stop at every stop (maybe connect 09 will make bus rides more tolerable for me and I'm not trying to sound lazy with the walking it just takes time). When I'm done for the job I just want to get home as fast as I can and that would be driving; despite the stress.
This is why I put high priority with PAT's TDP to slightly reduce the number of stops and do things like smart cards or off-bus fare payment to really reduce the "dwell" time of buses at stops. I do feel bad about elderly or disabled persons who would be forced to walk further for these stops, but unfortunately it seems like one of those issues where you can't speed up service and make it more convenient for those types of people at the same time.
Personally, I don't mind long bus rides, I mind waiting for long periods of time for a bus and the apprehension of not knowing if you missed a bus because it ran early or is just held up in traffic running late. That's another reason why I also support real-time tracking data, and I think it would go a long way to making people's transit experience MUCH better.
Oh, and seriously now, can't we get schedule information at the bus stops themselves? This has to be a low-overhead solution for PAT to attract new ridership.
Sure, but there is more than one way to skin that cat (besides buying into an expensive school district). And you can also look ahead. For that matter, you have time once your kids are in school--say you are in private for kindergarten, you might work on local school issues in time for high school. And so on.
So things can and do change. Maybe not quickly enough for all parents, but that isn't enough to stop the process entirely as long as the desire is there.
I can see you have no experience yet in K-12 education. The wheels grind exceedingly slowly.
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No, you were not. You quoted a statement from alleghenyangel, and a statement from me, and both of us specifically said what was relatively unique was how "affordable" those neighborhoods were in Pittsburgh.
Only I know what I meant, and what I meant is that Pittsburgh is not unique in having walkable residential neighborhoods. As I said later, Denver's and Minneapolis' are affordable as well.
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That isn't the issue. The issue is specifically nice walkable neighborhoods in the central core, and whether or not THOSE are affordable. I looked at the Denver area once not too long ago, and such neighborhoods were pretty pricey.
Well, you were looking in the wrong places. Capitol Hill, right near the capitol building, is one of the least expensive neighborhoods in Denver. My daughter lived in the University neighborhood (similar to Oakland) in a large 2 BR apt. for $650/mo including heat. Highlands is west of I-25, but it's only a few miles from downtown, and has some very affordable housing, as does Sloan's Lake, just south of there, where we lived for two years.
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No, I wasn't around (well, not to be aware of such things), but I have seen the cohort studies showing changing attitudes over time. It isn't just about urbanism, but about crime, race, the environment, and so on. Attitudes have in fact shifted, particularly at the point young people today are contemplating starting families.
Again, this isn't an anecdotal issue. We know central core areas in many cities are experiencing "baby booms", meaning rapidly increasing young child populations. In fact, there is evidence this is already happening in Pittsburgh too.
The counter-culture movement of the late 60s/early 70s was INTENSELY anti-suburban. You were supposed to either go live in a commune (which Wikipedia did a good article about) or live in the city.
http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:PDO_ySzSNVEJ:www.frieze.com/issue/article/the_psychedelic_fantasies_of_the_sixties/+counterculture+%2B+anti-suburb&cd=15&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us (broken link) the 60s counter-culture was avowedly anti-Eisenhower, anti-conformist and anti-suburban,
http://www.robertbruegmann.com/_imag...tand_Mar06.pdf "And when counterculture icon and self-styled "man of the people" Pete Seeger sang about working class suburban housing, they were "little boxes of ticky-tacky." "
Not necessarily. There are just a lot of people out there who have paid a lot of money, or made other compromises in their life, to buy into nice suburbs with good schools. These shifting trends threaten their economic interests, and indeed call into question the sacrifices they have made. So there is a natural resistance to accepting the wealth of empirical data supporting the existence of this trend.
But that may well not be true in your case.
Well, you're going to pay for a house wherever you live. I'm a bit irritated that you may think this of me, who you have never met. We bought a house thinking that we would adopt, which can take years. We figured we'd be long out of that house by the time we had kids. We didn't even consider schools when we bought it. 1 1/2 years later we had a baby, then 3 years later another baby. We bought a larger house in the same area, b/c we liked it. It's also a bit insulting to say I have a "natural resistance" to agreeing to the truth as you see it. I just see it differently, possibly b/c I've been through this before.
Last edited by Katarina Witt; 05-20-2010 at 03:07 PM..
Reason: add some links
I can see you have no experience yet in K-12 education. The wheels grind exceedingly slowly.
They are grinding faster now that people want change. For example, I've watched a series of new charter schools open up relatively rapidly in my area, which is because there are now a bunch of motivated parents in the area who aren't content with their current options.
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Only I know what I meant . . .
Now your story is shifting again. You quoted alleghenyangel and me. Then you claimed to be responding to something we didn't actually say. Now you are saying you weren't actually responding to us, just spontaneously addressing a different point.
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As I said later, Denver's and Minneapolis' are affordable as well. . . . Capitol Hill, right near the capitol building, is one of the least expensive neighborhoods in Denver.
Trulia says the average listing price for Capitol Hill is $304,438. That may well count as inexpensive in Denver, but I think that makes my point.
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The counter-culture movement of the late 60s/early 70s was INTENSELY anti-suburban.
That is rather the point too. It isn't "counter-culture" today. It is the norm among younger people.
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I'm a bit irritated that you may think this of me, who you have never met.
I made no claim about you personally. Again, we're talking here about broader claims, and your personal lifestory simply isn't relevant.
Average price per sqft in Capitol Hill (Feb-April 2010): $178 (which is down 54.1% YoY).
That actually does look pretty reasonable . . . for Denver, which has an average price per sqft of $181.
But there was NO Pittsburgh neighborhood that high. The highest was Squirrel Hill North, at $162. Next was Shadyside, at $152. Some place like Lower Lawrenceville? $60. Bloomfield? $59. Overall, the Pittsburgh average was $84.
Again, if property in "one of the least expensive neighborhoods in Denver" is going for more than Squirrel Hill North and Shadyside, and like triple Lawrenceville/Bloomfield, I think that really makes the point.
I don't really want to get involved in this fight between Katiana and BrianTH, but I will say that for people my age (mid-early 20s post-college crowd) living in the city is the preferred way, and pretty much the norm.
I don't know if it was like this in the 70s, but I really don't think it was this way. My parents moved directly from college to the suburbs. That just doesn't happen anymore.
They are grinding faster now that people want change. For example, I've watched a series of new charter schools open up relatively rapidly in my area, which is because there are now a bunch of motivated parents in the area who aren't content with their current options.
Many charter schools fail b/c parents don't know how to run schools, much as many think they do.
It's pdf, I can't copy/paste, so you'll have to read it. It's about Minnesota, which has the longest experience with charter schools.
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Now your story is shifting again. You quoted alleghenyangel and me. Then you claimed to be responding to something we didn't actually say. Now you are saying you weren't actually responding to us, just spontaneously addressing a different point.
I said I was responding to the so-called "uniqueness" of Pittsburgh's neighborhoods, which is untrue. You didn't say Pittsburgh neighborhood situation was unique? I'm not changing my story, nor am I addressing a different point. I did not shift my "story".
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Trulia says the average listing price for Capitol Hill is $304,438. That may well count as inexpensive in Denver, but I think that makes my point.
The average rent in Cap Hill is $588. That's less than I've heard a lot of people quote in Pittsburgh.
That is rather the point too. It isn't "counter-culture" today. It is the norm among younger people.
We were all, well, almost all, part of the counterculture in the late 60s. I know a lot of young people today, as I have kids and nieces and nephews in their 20s. They have friends. They are getting into their home-buying years, and they aren't all choosing the city.
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I made no claim about you personally. Again, we're talking here about broader claims, and your personal lifestory simply isn't relevant.
You got in your little dig all the while claiming that "perhaps that didn't apply to me".
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