Interesting read on Pittsburgh-Cleveland rail

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by pman

and I've never disagreed except with your distaste for any investment in Keystone East

Of course I have no such "distaste". It is a question of priorities.

this is in large part because . . .

There was an informal agreement to focus on Keystone East to the exclusion of Keystone West.

It also seems likely that support in western PA chose to push mag lev rather than Keystone West.

Nope. Maglev is a running joke in Western PA, and only exists because there has been a specific federal program funding it.

yes I know, even though you have no logical basis for doing so.

Says you.

But here is the thing. Suppose we follow my suggested approach, and it turns out you are right and I am wrong. There is still no harm done, because it is the right plan on the merits, with or without immediate federal funding.

Now suppose we follow your suggested approach, and it turns out you were wrong and I was right. Then we needlessly lose out on federal funding.

So, there is absolutely nothing to commend your suggested approach.

western PA needs to move on from mag lev.

As long as it is getting federal money from a distinct program, why?

OH already has squeezed out more than their crap plans deserved. there's nothing high speed about the 3C's which is far from being competitive with a car.

So which is it--decisions are being made by the feds on the merits, or being made based on politics? You can't claim the latter and then suddenly argue against using an available political lever which has proven successful.

you don't really understand my point of view at all

Sure I do. I just don't agree with your analysis, and in any event logic dictates we hedge our bets as I described above.

I said it hurts the whole state that Keystone east wasn't funded. . . . the feds do nothing better than pass unfunded mandates, at least in the real world.

Again, which is it? Not getting fed funding hurts the state, or in the real world it is all unfunded mandates anyway?

Anyway, we are back to the same point, and we are not about to convince each other. I'll just say again I am very hopeful your attitude is not adopted by the state, or at least not after a change in government.

[pman]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

There was an informal agreement to focus on Keystone East to the exclusion of Keystone West.

I guess this begs the question, how do you know?

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Nope. Maglev is a running joke in Western PA, and only exists because there has been a specific federal program funding it.

actually, it also had the support of politicians, what is actually thought of it by residents is another matter entirely.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Says you.

But here is the thing. Suppose we follow my suggested approach, and it turns out you are right and I am wrong. There is still no harm done, because it is the right plan on the merits, with or without immediate federal funding.

Now suppose we follow your suggested approach, and it turns out you were wrong and I was right. Then we needlessly lose out on federal funding.

So, there is absolutely nothing to commend your suggested approach.

says logic. the facts indicate that you are wrong. the rest of this is pure fantasy on your part. there is little difference in our proposed approach for the future. it's a lie you continue to repeat. I'm just calling you out on your bunk theory that PA didn't get any money simply because it wasn't part of a naitonal framework. the FRA obviously bent the rules where it saw fit, and the exceptions make far more sense in terms of politics than strategic planning. please stop fabricating things I said.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

As long as it is getting federal money from a distinct program, why?

in this case it cost them the opportunity to actually improve rail service in western pa any time soon.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

So which is it--decisions are being made by the feds on the merits, or being made based on politics? You can't claim the latter and then suddenly argue against using an available political lever which has proven successful.

not sure what lever you're talking about but yes, politics certainly heavily influenced the outcomes, much to the detriment of the program. the program itself was widely criticized for not having any sort of criteria that would ensure the monies went to realistic high speed programs, those critics turned out to be right. I'm not arguing that PA shouldn't engage in politics if that's how it's to be run but our state senators went to bat for scranton hoboken and mag lev. I'm also arguing that when the feds have an HSR program, the money should be used for higher speed operations.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Sure I do. I just don't agree with your analysis, and in any event logic dictates we hedge our bets as I described above.

or at least you think you don't, it's painfully clear that you're either dishonest or don't understand my viewpoint.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Again, which is it? Not getting fed funding hurts the state, or in the real world it is all unfunded mandates anyway?

this is a really dishonest question, one I'd assume a lawyer like yourself would be above using. not getting the funding hurts the state, as I posted earlier, we're still getting hit with the mandate of paying for fully allocated costs including capital...unfunded mandate and is an example of exactly what I said, here's $10, I'll take $15 back.

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Anyway, we are back to the same point, and we are not about to convince each other. I'll just say again I am very hopeful your attitude is not adopted by the state, or at least not after a change in government.

what attitude? It is you who has a narrow minded view that is based on nothing but lies and time magazine articles. it's people like you that have botched the process from start to finish, people so arrogant they think that despite having no knowledge of a subject they know more than those who are involved in it. Indeed, you really hope that people like me are part of the new administration. the reality is, you can't admit when you're wrong. nothing you've said in this whole thread indicates you know anything about railroads. get over yourself.

[KJP]

If you would like to read more about the Cleveland - Youngstown - Pittsburgh Corridor, I've posted some documents about this proposed passenger rail service at:

TechBelt Tracks white paper - 6.9MB
http://freepdfhosting.com/898887c48b.pdf

CYP rail talking points - for policymakers
http://freepdfhosting.com/7b6885bb79.pdf

CYP rail talking points - for travelers
http://freepdfhosting.com/c7d05de66f.pdf


And for the gentleman who keeps ripping on 3C for its one train a day at 38 mph, learn a little more about it before opining -- including that nearly all state-sponsored services start out modestly to provide a foundation for future enhancements....

http://freepdfhosting.com/7e28c8a73e.pdf (broken link)

High-speed rail projects built elsewhere in the world weren't built to relieve to highway and airport congestion, but to address passenger rail congestion. Think about that in the context of building political constituencies willing to support the heavy lift of a multi-billion-dollar high-speed line.

[BrianTH]

Thanks for the docs!

[CortlandGirl79]

Brian, you'll find everything you ever wanted to know here Cleveland-Youngstown-Pittsburgh Passenger Rail Service ...................

Oh, hey KJP, welcome to CD.

[KJP]

Thanks CortlandGirl79. Actually, I joined this forum two months before you did, but I see you visit and post here much more frequently than I!

[JayDiFiore]

I'm probably in the minority, buy I quite enjoy the Amtrak Capitol Limited service from DC to Chicago. I suppose the times are pretty inconvenient for Pittsburgh (circa midnight departure to Chicago), but you can get on at night... sleep for 90% of the trip and roll into Chicago at about 8:30 with a full day ahead of you...

Now, unfortunately, if you're only going to Cleveland, you're getting off the train right when all the bars close... D'oh. So finding a ride can be a bit tricky.

[CortlandGirl79]

Originally Posted by KJP

Thanks CortlandGirl79. Actually, I joined this forum two months before you did, but I see you visit and post here much more frequently than I!

LOL I saw that after i posted, but i figured since you only had 14 posts i would welcome you anyway. Compared to UrbanOhio you've barely typed a word here!