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Racism has never gone away without some form of government intervention. Jim Crow laws were instituted to allow segregation to be enforced by the police. The anti- discrimination laws were passed to allow equal access despite race or color to everyone in both public and private facilities. They were needed because the racists never change without force and some do not change in any case.
well i disagree with that. more often than not, govt picks up on a trend and then sneakily jumps to the front of the parade and claims the credit.
take madoff as an example. investors have recently awoken, shaken by the FACT that the sec is not capable of fulfilling its mandate to protect investors. as a result investors are being much more careful, they're spreading their risk and doing their homework. the actions of these individual investors will lead to a dramatic drop in fraudulent, ponzi scheme activity. obviously the govt will claim that this drop in white collar crime will be due to the regulations they're passing.
Segregation is a weird thing. Most people tend to segregate, but not all. It is very natural for people to seek out people like them, they have more in common with people like them, they generally are more attracted to people like them, etc.
A good example of this is marriage. According to statistics, there are 50.2 million white men married to white women, but there are only 117,000 white men married to black women. That means white men are 429 times more likely to marry a black woman than a white woman.
There are a few people that tend to seek out people unlike them for various reasons. Some are attracted to the exotic, some are rebelling against their parents/society, and some even seek out others for appreciation of their cultures, and others just fell in love. Over a long enough period of time, even this small number of integrated people will eventually cause the integration of an entire society. But depending on how readily a society integrates is related to how long it takes before the lines of race disappear. I mean, once we are all shades of brown then what is white and black anyway?
Despite what many believe, to a large degree both whites and blacks had been supportive of the concept of separate but equal. If you can realize that there are black nationalists, black and proud, black panther/Malcolm-X types. Those blacks that don't like their other blacks straying outside of their race and who voluntarily live in all-black communities(and not just the poor, there are middle-class black neighborhoods in many of our larger cities). The concepts of separate but equal in principle was really to the benefit of everyone. And if everything really was applied separately but equally(IE, not blacks being relegated to the back of the bus), then all would have been just fine. And if you know anything about the civil rights years and the years since the civil rights era, you would understand desegregation in how it was forced on people so quickly, especially with things like how they did bus'ing in the south to force blacks and white school kids together, was an absolute travesty of the highest magnitude. It was just a bunch of liberals thinking with their hearts and not their brains.
That isn't to say that segregation would have continued in the way it did on its own. Without government imposing segregation on private businesses, there would slowly be a grinding away at the walls that separated people in the south. Businesses generally don't benefit from segregation. In terms of busses(and other transit), it would be impractical to have an all-black bus and an all-white bus(do you have any idea how expensive a public transportation system is?). Secondly, it is impractical to force blacks to the back of a bus in many districts for safety reasons(especially for the elderly), and in areas where there might not be any whites at all(get to the back of the bus anyway?).
Without government enforcing desegregation like we have today, it is difficult to really know what the world would be like. I would believe that in many pockets of this country, racism would be extremely prevalent today, as much or more-so than it already is(I am talking places like the southern Appalachian mountains, ranging from Northern Georgia all the way up to West Virginia, which are overwhelmingly white for being in the south). That includes in hotels, pools, restaurants, lunch-counters, movie theaters, etc. But in many ways I think much of the cause of hostilities in society today are caused by the atmosphere created by the civil-rights era, the escalation of hostilities between blacks and whites when forced to interact after forced desegregation was very easy to see, and interracial crime is still a very big issue even today. Then theres the perception that certain rights and liberties(in regards to private matters)have been stripped away in the name of "creating a great society". Where there is a constant attack on free speech to brand anyone who disagrees as hateful and ignorant(what exactly is a hate-crime anyway? What really makes it any more special than any other crime? It is just made-up, and unequally applied). While the government has become actively involved in enforcing unfair policies, such as affirmative action, which causes more and more backlash against the government, and actually divides rather than unites.
I honestly can say with certainty that the civil rights act and most of the progressive legislation coming after it was almost entirely a bad thing. And while I can say with certainty that blacks are doing better today than in 1964, I would also say that blacks were doing far better in 1964 than they were doing in 1930, or 1900, or 1870. Much of the great society legislation was hardly aimed to making anything equal, but it was intended to force morality on people who we didn't agree with, it was to limit free speech, and it was intended to artificially prop up one group by taking away from another in the sake of fairness. The progressive legislation was an attack on the constitution and an attack on the fundamentals of a free society.
If you read John Kennedy's words on the necessity for desegregation, it was based on certain statistics in regards to black society and the belief that the ills of black society were directly related to segregation. He stated that blacks tended to not graduate high school at the same rates as whites, they were much less likely to have a college degree, their life expectencies were shorter, and the likelihood of them having high incomes was much lower than whites. And while this was true in 1963, even with the policies of affirmative action, the actions of unions, and the growing role of government(and their quota's, affirmative action, and other equal opportunity policies), things really aren't that much different almost 50 years later(I hate to get into why I believe that the gap cannot be erased).
If you look at the vast improvement of black society from 1865 till 1964, I have no reason to believe that black society would be any worse today without governments involvement in racial and economic affairs. And I would also believe that black/white relations overall(especially in areas outside the south) would be far better today without this same involvement. But that is just my opinion.
The black codes were put in place not to enforce segregation but to stop integration. Whites had no problem associating with blacks as long as there was a master class and a slave class of citizens. The core issue which still remains today is not segregation or integration. It is equality.
Segregation is a weird thing. Most people tend to segregate, but not all. It is very natural for people to seek out people like them, they have more in common with people like them, they generally are more attracted to people like them, etc.
A good example of this is marriage. According to statistics, there are 50.2 million white men married to white women, but there are only 117,000 white men married to black women. That means white men are 429 times more likely to marry a black woman than a white woman.
There are a few people that tend to seek out people unlike them for various reasons. Some are attracted to the exotic, some are rebelling against their parents/society, and some even seek out others for appreciation of their cultures, and others just fell in love. Over a long enough period of time, even this small number of integrated people will eventually cause the integration of an entire society. But depending on how readily a society integrates is related to how long it takes before the lines of race disappear. I mean, once we are all shades of brown then what is white and black anyway?
Despite what many believe, to a large degree both whites and blacks had been supportive of the concept of separate but equal. If you can realize that there are black nationalists, black and proud, black panther/Malcolm-X types. Those blacks that don't like their other blacks straying outside of their race and who voluntarily live in all-black communities(and not just the poor, there are middle-class black neighborhoods in many of our larger cities). The concepts of separate but equal in principle was really to the benefit of everyone. And if everything really was applied separately but equally(IE, not blacks being relegated to the back of the bus), then all would have been just fine. And if you know anything about the civil rights years and the years since the civil rights era, you would understand desegregation in how it was forced on people so quickly, especially with things like how they did bus'ing in the south to force blacks and white school kids together, was an absolute travesty of the highest magnitude. It was just a bunch of liberals thinking with their hearts and not their brains.
That isn't to say that segregation would have continued in the way it did on its own. Without government imposing segregation on private businesses, there would slowly be a grinding away at the walls that separated people in the south. Businesses generally don't benefit from segregation. In terms of busses(and other transit), it would be impractical to have an all-black bus and an all-white bus(do you have any idea how expensive a public transportation system is?). Secondly, it is impractical to force blacks to the back of a bus in many districts for safety reasons(especially for the elderly), and in areas where there might not be any whites at all(get to the back of the bus anyway?).
Without government enforcing desegregation like we have today, it is difficult to really know what the world would be like. I would believe that in many pockets of this country, racism would be extremely prevalent today, as much or more-so than it already is(I am talking places like the southern Appalachian mountains, ranging from Northern Georgia all the way up to West Virginia, which are overwhelmingly white for being in the south). That includes in hotels, pools, restaurants, lunch-counters, movie theaters, etc. But in many ways I think much of the cause of hostilities in society today are caused by the atmosphere created by the civil-rights era, the escalation of hostilities between blacks and whites when forced to interact after forced desegregation was very easy to see, and interracial crime is still a very big issue even today. Then theres the perception that certain rights and liberties(in regards to private matters)have been stripped away in the name of "creating a great society". Where there is a constant attack on free speech to brand anyone who disagrees as hateful and ignorant(what exactly is a hate-crime anyway? What really makes it any more special than any other crime? It is just made-up, and unequally applied). While the government has become actively involved in enforcing unfair policies, such as affirmative action, which causes more and more backlash against the government, and actually divides rather than unites.
I honestly can say with certainty that the civil rights act and most of the progressive legislation coming after it was almost entirely a bad thing. And while I can say with certainty that blacks are doing better today than in 1964, I would also say that blacks were doing far better in 1964 than they were doing in 1930, or 1900, or 1870. Much of the great society legislation was hardly aimed to making anything equal, but it was intended to force morality on people who we didn't agree with, it was to limit free speech, and it was intended to artificially prop up one group by taking away from another in the sake of fairness. The progressive legislation was an attack on the constitution and an attack on the fundamentals of a free society.
If you read John Kennedy's words on the necessity for desegregation, it was based on certain statistics in regards to black society and the belief that the ills of black society were directly related to segregation. He stated that blacks tended to not graduate high school at the same rates as whites, they were much less likely to have a college degree, their life expectencies were shorter, and the likelihood of them having high incomes was much lower than whites. And while this was true in 1963, even with the policies of affirmative action, the actions of unions, and the growing role of government(and their quota's, affirmative action, and other equal opportunity policies), things really aren't that much different almost 50 years later(I hate to get into why I believe that the gap cannot be erased).
If you look at the vast improvement of black society from 1865 till 1964, I have no reason to believe that black society would be any worse today without governments involvement in racial and economic affairs. And I would also believe that black/white relations overall(especially in areas outside the south) would be far better today without this same involvement. But that is just my opinion.
What is your opinion on why the gap between the Whites and blacks on economic and educational scale not be erased? So you saying segeration was an good thing and desegeration has been a real disaster.
well i disagree with that. more often than not, govt picks up on a trend and then sneakily jumps to the front of the parade and claims the credit.
take madoff as an example. investors have recently awoken, shaken by the FACT that the sec is not capable of fulfilling its mandate to protect investors. as a result investors are being much more careful, they're spreading their risk and doing their homework. the actions of these individual investors will lead to a dramatic drop in fraudulent, ponzi scheme activity. obviously the govt will claim that this drop in white collar crime will be due to the regulations they're passing.
Actually lets look at the example that you started your thread with. Segregation, I'm awaiting with bated breath your assertion that the government just jumped to the front of the parade with those in the south who were gleefully awaiting the end of segregation.
I think it's important to consider the time period in which laws requiring segregation became enacted by local communities, state legislatures, and later the Federal government (see Woody Wilson's regime).
As C. Vann Woodward notes, as well as Rabinowitz, some of the first laws mandating segregation in public spaces (buildings, restaurants, hotels, train cars, etc.) came about in the late 1880s--about 20 or so years after the end of the Civil War and passage of the 13th Amendment, which abolished slavery in the United States (note that the Emancipation Proclamation didn't do what the 13th Amendment did).
Well, 20 years after the ratification of the 13th Amendment was a time when African Americans, the first generation born outside of slavery, were reaching adulthood. As historians have interpreted, the white power structure had to send a very public message to these African Americans that they were inferior in U.S. society. Furthermore, these segregation laws also sent a message to whites that government apparatuses were determined to protect whites' privileged position in society.
This is how and why segregation became institutionalized in the form of laws.
For whoever said that segregation would end "naturally" (whatever that means), well it didn't end in a very easy manner. Consider much of the discord that ensued after Montgomery 1955 (bombings, whatnot), after Autherine Lucy integrated the University of Alabama--white mobs threw excrement on the car she was in as university officials rushed her to safety. They threw f'in excrement. Think about that for a moment. Think about how powerful segregation was and the great lengths to which whites would defend it. They'd rather handle excrement than to allow a black graduate student to take a few English classes.
Similarly, James Meredith's integration of Ole Miss in 1962 caused rioting, complete with Rebel-flag waving students, townfolk, outsiders, and fanatics. Before that, however, Alabamians firebombed the busses the freedom riders took into the deep South to challenge integration mandates in interstate commerce facilities. These Alabamians would rather kill people than to allow blacks and whites to use the same bus terminals.
It is important to consider in these instances of counterprotests by whites that the vast majority were not members of the Klan or affiliated with the Citizens' Councils. They were ordinary people. Ordinary people protested integration and did so with violence and extreme acts of committment to the racial status quo.
Even after passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965, Southerners begrudgingly refused to accept these federal mandates. One of the reasons for Civil Rights activism post-1964 was because many of these federal laws lacked much enforcement measures. A business in Collins, Mississippi could and did refuse to serve blacks despite the language requiring them to do so in the CRA of 1964.
Even though the famous Brown decisions came down in 1954 and 1955 (Brown ruled that segregation in public edu was unconstitutional), it wasn't until 1970 when many of the deep South school districts finally initiated full desegregation plans. How did many ordinary whites react? They formed their own schools, often derisively referred to as "segregation academies," and in many instances these quickly constructed schools lacked numerous resources, qualified teachers, equipment, and a standardized curricula. Whites preferred, at this time, a substandard school for their children rather than for them to attend school with blacks.
At the heart of segregation was the idea of racial purity. Whites steadfastly believed that interaction with blacks (as equals) would lead to sex, which would inevitably destroy the racial purity of the white race. This was the biggest fear among southern whites and it has been stated in terms of the "one-drop rule" which meant that one drop of a black person's blood made one black. Quite ridiculous by today's standards, beliefs, and mores, but this is what ordinary, rank-and-file whites believed and defended in extreme ways.
Since I am not so insecure about my abilities to refute an argument posed by a fellow African Americans, particularly those on the right, I really don't feel a need to revert to ad hominem attacks of the worst sort.
I also hasten to add that from a literary point of view Uncle Tom is one of the most misused sobriquets in the english language. The character in Harriet Beecher Stowe's novel Uncle Tom's Cabin, was not the tool of the slave master, nor did the character Uncle Tom do anything that might be regarded as a betrayal to other black people. So, no. You won't be reading any post from me calling someone an Uncle Tom.
Now perhaps you might respond to my post without reverting to cutting and pasting a YouTube clip in an attempt to build a strawman argument.
What is your opinion on why the gap between the Whites and blacks on economic and educational scale not be erased? So you saying segeration was an good thing and desegeration has been a real disaster.
There is a big difference between stopping segregation, and enforcing desegregation. I would have been fine with blocking government imposed segregation, you obviously have the freedom of association. But its a totally different matter to use the government to try to enforce integration.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with preventing the government from imposing segregation. But quotas, affirmative action, forced bussing, etc, were downright terrible policies. Even the blacks in the south were generally opposed to most of these government policies. I highly doubt the black parents were happy from the massive upswing in violence that their children also had to endure because of the narrow-minded policies of the liberal elitists northerners who hardly were affected by these policies.
If you look at incomes and education from the end of slavery till 1964 you will see that blacks had been narrowing the gap between whites and blacks during this entire time. Blacks were breaking into mostly white-dominated businesses, sports, entertainment, music, and everything in-between. If you go by the statistics of 1964 and compare them to 2010, in that 46 year span the gap between blacks and whites has not noticeably narrowed any more than the gap between blacks and whites from the previous 46 years. Blacks in 1964 were doing far far better than they were doing in 1918.
When we look at the overall situation we must discern the actual facts from what many people want to believe. The truth is, desegregation was absolutely bad. The unfair government policies to artificially elevate one race or sex or fill-in-the-blank over another have been wholly bad.
I have read many articles about affirmative action, and without it, blacks are not excelling and would continue to spiral down and down and down, and despite what you might want to believe, it isn't because of any insidious discriminatory system. It is because blacks as a group, tend to have certain talents and abilities that might produce more top athletes, but they just are never going to be absolutely equal to whites in education. And neither will whites ever be equal to Asians in things like mathematics.
Life isn't fair, stop trying to pretend it is. Don't blame me, blame god. He is the one that made some people intelligent, or strong, or fast, or good looking. And made others, weak, fat, slow, ugly, and stupid. I don't think half the professional athletes deserve their massive salaries, just because they were blessed with genetic physical gifts, how fair is that? It isn't, but that is the world we live in.
Freedom is the key to this situation. Let people be free to do whatever they want to do. If they want to integrate, great. If they want to be in an interracial marriage, thats fine. If they want to be a racist xenophobe, I can try to convince them they are wrong, but I have no right to force them to conform to my way of thinking. If they don't want black friends, if they don't want to live in a black neighborhood, go to a black school, hire black employees, provide their services to black people. They are free to do so.
Stop pretending that people are only free to do things you think they should be doing. And that goes for everyone.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with preventing the government from imposing segregation. But quotas, affirmative action, forced bussing, etc, were downright terrible policies. Even the blacks in the south were generally opposed to most of these government policies. I highly doubt the black parents were happy from the massive upswing in violence that their children also had to endure because of the narrow-minded policies of the liberal elitists northerners who hardly were affected by these policies.
If you look at incomes and education from the end of slavery till 1964 you will see that blacks had been narrowing the gap between whites and blacks during this entire time. Blacks were breaking into mostly white-dominated businesses, sports, entertainment, music, and everything in-between. If you go by the statistics of 1964 and compare them to 2010, in that 46 year span the gap between blacks and whites has not noticeably narrowed any more than the gap between blacks and whites from the previous 46 years. Blacks in 1964 were doing far far better than they were doing in 1918.
Freedom is the key to this situation. Let people be free to do whatever they want to do. If they want to integrate, great. If they want to be in an interracial marriage, thats fine. If they want to be a racist xenophobe, I can try to convince them they are wrong, but I have no right to force them to conform to my way of thinking. If they don't want black friends, if they don't want to live in a black neighborhood, go to a black school, hire black employees, provide their services to black people. They are free to do so.
Stop pretending that people are only free to do things you think they should be doing. And that goes for everyone.
Okay, which blacks opposed gov. policies vis-a-vis desegregation? What were their reasons for doing so?
Further, provide sources that affirms how southern blacks (or blacks in general) were narrowing the income and educational gaps that existed in the 1950s and 1960s. So black domestic workers and others employed in menial jobs (because that was all that was open to them in many, many states, localities, etc.) were somehow earning as much as their white counterparts? Are you mad? Just because blacks made gains between 1918 and 1964 doesn't in any way indicate that these gains were equal to the gains whites made in the same time frame. Have you seen pictures of sharecroppers' shacks circa 1960?
Since freedom is the key to this situation, as you assert, I find it telling that you avoid mention of how blacks were barred from equal educational opportunities until widespread massive integration circa 1970 (16 years after the first Brown decision). Actually blacks were free to challenge the situation, and they did. They did so through direct action protests and coordinated legal challenges. Many a judge and Supreme Court justice ruled in their favor, so they used their freedom to challenge an unjust system. What's the problem with that?
Lastly, the government has not forced anyone to think anything. The government tried to change institutionalized racism through legislation and legal decisions----not the individual attitudes of the racists. You can believe anything you want to believe and you're giving the government way too much power if you believe that federal legislation changes anyone's attitude.
People are free today to be racists and that's why southern segregation academies still make a buck. If you don't like integrated education, you still have choices to avoid it.
There is a big difference between stopping segregation, and enforcing desegregation. I would have been fine with blocking government imposed segregation, you obviously have the freedom of association. But its a totally different matter to use the government to try to enforce integration.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with preventing the government from imposing segregation. But quotas, affirmative action, forced bussing, etc, were downright terrible policies. Even the blacks in the south were generally opposed to most of these government policies. I highly doubt the black parents were happy from the massive upswing in violence that their children also had to endure because of the narrow-minded policies of the liberal elitists northerners who hardly were affected by these policies.
If you look at incomes and education from the end of slavery till 1964 you will see that blacks had been narrowing the gap between whites and blacks during this entire time. Blacks were breaking into mostly white-dominated businesses, sports, entertainment, music, and everything in-between. If you go by the statistics of 1964 and compare them to 2010, in that 46 year span the gap between blacks and whites has not noticeably narrowed any more than the gap between blacks and whites from the previous 46 years. Blacks in 1964 were doing far far better than they were doing in 1918.
When we look at the overall situation we must discern the actual facts from what many people want to believe. The truth is, desegregation was absolutely bad. The unfair government policies to artificially elevate one race or sex or fill-in-the-blank over another have been wholly bad.
I have read many articles about affirmative action, and without it, blacks are not excelling and would continue to spiral down and down and down, and despite what you might want to believe, it isn't because of any insidious discriminatory system. It is because blacks as a group, tend to have certain talents and abilities that might produce more top athletes, but they just are never going to be absolutely equal to whites in education. And neither will whites ever be equal to Asians in things like mathematics.
Life isn't fair, stop trying to pretend it is. Don't blame me, blame god. He is the one that made some people intelligent, or strong, or fast, or good looking. And made others, weak, fat, slow, ugly, and stupid. I don't think half the professional athletes deserve their massive salaries, just because they were blessed with genetic physical gifts, how fair is that? It isn't, but that is the world we live in.
Freedom is the key to this situation. Let people be free to do whatever they want to do. If they want to integrate, great. If they want to be in an interracial marriage, thats fine. If they want to be a racist xenophobe, I can try to convince them they are wrong, but I have no right to force them to conform to my way of thinking. If they don't want black friends, if they don't want to live in a black neighborhood, go to a black school, hire black employees, provide their services to black people. They are free to do so.
Stop pretending that people are only free to do things you think they should be doing. And that goes for everyone.
You are just sterotyping people. Where I live there are not many blacks, as its not America, however the blacks I have met from Africa, many I have met have university degress. In addition there are many white adults that have not finished school. I have known Asians that are not bright in maths.
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