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Old 07-05-2010, 01:30 PM
 
2,104 posts, read 1,438,601 times
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Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.

Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.


Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.


But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.


Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.


I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.


I never submitted the whole system of my opinions to the creed of any party of men whatever in religion, in philosophy, in politics, or in anything else where I was capable of thinking for myself. Such an addiction is the last degradation of a free and moral agent.


Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them; and no man ever had a distinct idea of the trinity. It is the mere Abracadabra of the mountebanks calling themselves the priests of Jesus."

My opinion is that there would never have been an infidel, if there had never been a priest. The artificial structures they have built on the purest of all moral systems, for the purpose of deriving from it pence and power, revolts those who think for themselves, and who read in that system only what is really there.

All quoted material penned by Jefferson.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Long Beach
2,347 posts, read 2,775,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUEGRITT View Post
Click here to read what the 2002 Congress said about our country and religion.

The same 2002 Congress under control of the Republican party and under Bush?
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:42 PM
 
Location: Long Beach
2,347 posts, read 2,775,955 times
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John Adams: With George Washington-the undoubted Father of Our Nation.
"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved -- the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"
"The United States of America have exhibited, perhaps, the first example of governments erected on the simple principles of nature; and if men are now sufficiently enlightened to disabuse themselves of artifice, imposture, hypocrisy, and superstition, they will consider this event as an era in their history. Although the detail of the formation of the American governments is at present little known or regarded either in Europe or in America, it may hereafter become an object of curiosity. It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven, more than those at work upon ships or houses, or laboring in merchandise or agriculture; it will forever be acknowledged that these governments were contrived merely by the use of reason and the senses.
". . . Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind."

James Madison: Author of the Consitution
"During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
"What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."

Thomas Jefferson: You know who he is. This is the most compelling arguement against you.
"Where the preamble declares, that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed by inserting "Jesus Christ," so that it would read "A departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;" the insertion was rejected by the great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mohammedan, the Hindoo and Infidel of every denomination."

__
No law in this nation establishes a supremacy of Chrisianity [of any faith/denomination] as being the national religion or the national reverance.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:50 PM
 
Location: Long Beach
2,347 posts, read 2,775,955 times
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"Laws of Nature and of Nature's God"

This is strictly a deist point of view. There is almost nothing Christian about it. It is literally saying God is attributed to nature and nature alone. Not to an eternallly begotten celestial figure we might associate with God the Father/God of Abraham.

And as such, those undeniable rights come from nature [nature's God] but they are as divine as nature is divine.

Our nation was founded [and as such is a product] of the Age of Enlightenment. Knowing the historical context of our existence is reason enough to understand the intentions of our Founding Fathers.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:51 PM
 
Location: The Heartland
4,458 posts, read 4,182,727 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmkcin View Post
The same 2002 Congress under control of the Republican party and under Bush?
Have you seen a rebuttal under the Democratically controlled Congress?
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:55 PM
 
Location: lake zurich, il
3,197 posts, read 2,844,191 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roysoldboy View Post
Notice the words that appear about 2/3 of the way through the first paragraph. I just always wonder if they are the words of a deist. I think not but then talking about Nature's God may not be those of a Christian, at least to a deist or an atheist.

"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." --Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776
Wait did you just start a thread about Thomas Jefferson and not link us to an episode of Glenn Beck? Congratulations you are on the road to recovery.
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Old 07-05-2010, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Long Beach
2,347 posts, read 2,775,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUEGRITT View Post
Have you seen a rebuttal under the Democratically controlled Congress?
Just goes to show that Congress is full of idiots.

I have no problem saying that the Dems would be just as wrong to make such assertations.
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:09 PM
 
Location: The Heartland
4,458 posts, read 4,182,727 times
Reputation: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmkcin View Post
"Laws of Nature and of Nature's God"

This is strictly a deist point of view. There is almost nothing Christian about it. It is literally saying God is attributed to nature and nature alone. Not to an eternallly begotten celestial figure we might associate with God the Father/God of Abraham.

And as such, those undeniable rights come from nature [nature's God] but they are as divine as nature is divine.

Our nation was founded [and as such is a product] of the Age of Enlightenment. Knowing the historical context of our existence is reason enough to understand the intentions of our Founding Fathers.
Thomas Jefferson
"I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus." [Letter to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803]Everything about it is 100% Christian.

While you say that "Laws of Nature and of Nature's God" there is almost nothing Christian about it.

I will go with his proclamation of Christianity. I also know that even way back then, the Founding Fathers were politicians and at times had to be careful in how certain things had to be stated so, knowing the full context would help.
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:10 PM
 
Location: The Heartland
4,458 posts, read 4,182,727 times
Reputation: 760
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmkcin View Post
Just goes to show that Congress is full of idiots.

I have no problem saying that the Dems would be just as wrong to make such assertations.
A little crawdadin there huh?
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Old 07-05-2010, 02:12 PM
 
Location: Long Beach
2,347 posts, read 2,775,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRUEGRITT View Post
A little crawdadin there huh?
huh? I don't speak heartlandian.
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