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Plenty of great observations had been made in the thread below that had been resurrected from '07 and apparently was closed today. I began typing a reply to the OP before realizing the thread had been closed. I just wanted to add my two cents to the topic.
One thing that I see is the abundance of excuse making among us (I am also black), with a major attribution to racism. While racism and discrimination are both certainly present in America, claims regarding both are numerous and often exaggerated. Racism and discrimination against blacks are not omni-present, and they aren't lurking around every corner. It makes me angry how often things are charged to racism in some form, much like Jesse Jackson's response to Cav's owner and his letter. And we eat this stuff up with a spoon.
The other day, one of the callers responding to a topic regarding Mel Gibson on a black talk radio station that I listen to claimed that blacks can't be racist. Almost every other caller agreed wholeheartedly. His premise (and this is a famous argument) was that blacks do not have enough power in this country to deprive whites, and therefore can't be racist. How does that even make sense? My understanding is that racism, much like classism, and sexism, is based in a sense of superiority of one group over the other. It has nothing to do with the ability to deprive, and it is certainly racist to even think like that caller did. The fact that we express moral superiority (whites are evil snakes, while blacks are constant victims of it, etc.) is inherently racist. We like living in this eternal victimhood, where we can claim to be powerless and cling to the benefits that come along with being the victim. Furthermore, in a country where racism and discrimination against blacks is apparently rampant, it almost never has a significant effect on the success of our African and West Indian counterparts. Until we can free ourselves from such thinking, we will never get the progress we desire in this country.
Lastly, we sadly do not think outside of the box. Blacks tend to disassociate with anything that would be considered "white", and kind of inherently leaves us boxed in. Several things will get you ostracised in the black community, such as being a Republican, being a devout atheist or agnostic, being a fan of any genre of music that is not considered "black" or at least acceptable to us, dating someone who is white, actively participating in activities that are considered "white", etc. If we want improvement in our community, we need to be open minded. We cannot be resistant to at least the consideration of different ideas and concepts. We should encourage, at least, freer thought, instead of molding ourselves the same. I've found myself at odds with my family and some of my black friends because I typically go left when the majority swings right. I didn't vote for Obama, or anyone for that matter. I'm not a devout Christian, rather a religious skeptic, and as you can imagine, I'm in the minority when it comes to my beliefs regarding how we can attain upward mobility in this country.
We do not play the race card and should realize it is student under achievement. We have thrown billions at the public schools and what we are doing is not working
We do not play the race card and should realize it is student under achievement. We have thrown billions at the public schools and what we are doing is not working
But I went to a public school and I was a very good student despite only having some good teachers. That I didn't learn in school, I tought myself, and then went to a top 25% university, then to law school...
But I went to a public school and I was a very good student despite only having some good teachers. That I didn't learn in school, I tought myself, and then went to a top 25% university, then to law school...
Plenty of great observations had been made in the thread below that had been resurrected from '07 and apparently was closed today. I began typing a reply to the OP before realizing the thread had been closed. I just wanted to add my two cents to the topic.
One thing that I see is the abundance of excuse making among us (I am also black), with a major attribution to racism. While racism and discrimination are both certainly present in America, claims regarding both are numerous and often exaggerated. Racism and discrimination against blacks are not omni-present, and they aren't lurking around every corner. It makes me angry how often things are charged to racism in some form, much like Jesse Jackson's response to Cav's owner and his letter. And we eat this stuff up with a spoon.
The other day, one of the callers responding to a topic regarding Mel Gibson on a black talk radio station that I listen to claimed that blacks can't be racist. Almost every other caller agreed wholeheartedly. His premise (and this is a famous argument) was that blacks do not have enough power in this country to deprive whites, and therefore can't be racist. How does that even make sense? My understanding is that racism, much like classism, and sexism, is based in a sense of superiority of one group over the other. It has nothing to do with the ability to deprive, and it is certainly racist to even think like that caller did. The fact that we express moral superiority (whites are evil snakes, while blacks are constant victims of it, etc.) is inherently racist. We like living in this eternal victimhood, where we can claim to be powerless and cling to the benefits that come along with being the victim. Furthermore, in a country where racism and discrimination against blacks is apparently rampant, it almost never has a significant effect on the success of our African and West Indian counterparts. Until we can free ourselves from such thinking, we will never get the progress we desire in this country.
Lastly, we sadly do not think outside of the box. Blacks tend to disassociate with anything that would be considered "white", and kind of inherently leaves us boxed in. Several things will get you ostracised in the black community, such as being a Republican, being a devout atheist or agnostic, being a fan of any genre of music that is not considered "black" or at least acceptable to us, dating someone who is white, actively participating in activities that are considered "white", etc. If we want improvement in our community, we need to be open minded. We cannot be resistant to at least the consideration of different ideas and concepts. We should encourage, at least, freer thought, instead of molding ourselves the same. I've found myself at odds with my family and some of my black friends because I typically go left when the majority swings right. I didn't vote for Obama, or anyone for that matter. I'm not a devout Christian, rather a religious skeptic, and as you can imagine, I'm in the minority when it comes to my beliefs regarding how we can attain upward mobility in this country.
The only people who can change underchievement among a segment of the black race are those blacks who are underachieving. I feel that such a segment will always be present in our society, just as much as there will always be a segment of whites who underachieve and become conservatives. These people (both underachieving blacks and conservatives) cannot be reasoned with. History has been visible to both groups, yet they still embrace severe ignorance with each generation. They both represent the worst of their races. It appears to take a personal traumatic experience to change one for the better. In the case of the underachieving black, he has to be thrown in prison and death row such as Tookie Williams. For Conservatives, maybe a George Wallace experience needs to happen, where he was shot and nearly killed. Wallace certainly turned it around after facing such an ordeal.
I think it's better to focus on those blacks and whites who are part of the solution, and there is an abundance of such people. Not all blacks underachieve and not all whites discriminate. These the the types of people that president Obama stands for.
I agree with the first person who said a lot of that ignorance manifests itself in rap culture. I find it ironic how many blacks complain about racism and prejudice, yet I see how the hiphop and rap culture degrades and objectifies women. Not to mention, it also encourages homophobia. Any man who is somewhat effeminate is considered unworthy. I'm a white guy, and I hope you'll pardon me if I seem a bit insensitive. I would very much love to see the black community get organized, too. I'll be honest with you and say I'm not racist, but I'm not color-blind, either. It's kind of hard to be when you see this stuff happening everywhere. I dated a black woman a few years ago. Her friends often criticized her for "not acting black enough" because she didn't dress ghetto or speak Ebonics. She had class and some education. That said, her parents threatened to disown her for not dating a white guy.
Nonetheless, I get tired of the race card being pulled out a lot, too. In a city like Detroit where the population is 80-percent black, a police car pulling over two black men they suspect committed a crime is not racial profiling. It's called the Law of Probability. I find it very difficult when cities like Baltimore, Detroit, Atlanta, St. Louis, and Detroit which would be considered as "black meccas" all have super high crime rates. I understand skin color has nothing to do with it, and much of that pertains to poverty. However, I'm also certain it pertains to cultural values and whatnot. It could range anywhere from having absent fathers to high dropout rates or whatever. Be that as it may, I think now would be an excellent time for the black community to get organized and start accepting responsibility if they ever wish to succeed in society. To put it bluntly, the black community are their own worst enemy, and they're keeping themselves down. Barack Obama didn't get where he is today by pulling out the race card and neither did Oprah. They both proved that you can do whatever want if you put your mind to it.
It shouldn't have taken him 30 years to reach those conclusions. If he hadn't spent all that time with a microscope on Blacks, perhaps he would have realized his conclusions are skin color biased.
Black students in Shaker Heights reported that a dominant attitude among their peers was that "it was not cool to be successful."
This is amusing because White kids have this attitude too, that only nerds are academically successful.
ACCORDING to Ogbu, the tendency to eschew academic success is exacerbated by a common failure to understand the relation between academic success and future job opportunities. "Students at all levels did not make adequate connection between their academic performance and their adult futures in the labor market." They did not understand that "a student desiring to become an engineer would start taking certain math courses at a precollege level of schooling."
Kids of all skin colors don't understand this. When a kid signs up for classes, parents need to have already discussed his career goals with him.
School counselors don't always advise kids on what classes to take, and when they do, often they tend to lower the child's expectations, encouraging underachievement. I think most parents don't realize this. Schools do tend to steer Black and White kids in different directions.
Parents and kids have to take responsibility.
Ogbu repeatedly characterizes as "dismal" the level of black parental involvement in the education of their children. Economic pressures--the need for some black parents to work long hours to earn an adequate income--account for some of the problem, but in Ogbu's view not all of it.
This is true of parents of all skin colors.
He reports a belief of black parents that they fulfilled their educational obligation simply by living in Shaker Heights and paying hefty school taxes. Once they had done so, "it was up to the school to teach and make sure that their children learned, and it was up to their children to study and do well in school." If Ogbu's analysis is correct, too many black parents fail to realize that success requires not only that students show up at school, but also that parents monitor their children's school work attentively.
It is also true that parents of every skin color leave it up to the school.
You can't force parents to become better parents. Bottom line...it begins with personal responsibility.
What you should really be looking at is, at what level should blacks be achieving in order for us to be content? If blacks represent 13% of the population, what percentage of engineers should be black?
"Asians were 9 percent of scientists and engineers in the United States in 1993, although they were only 3 percent of the U.S. population. Blacks, Hispanics, and American Indians as a group were 23 percent of the U.S. population but only 6 percent of the total science and engineering labor force."
"Asians were 11 percent of doctoral scientists and engineers in the United States in 1993. Blacks were 2 percent, Hispanics were 2 percent, and American Indians were less than half of 1 percent of doctoral scientists and engineers."
What is the cause of the failures of the black community? Is it entirely a social/cultural problem? Maybe there are other factors that might be limiting the black community, and how should those limitations be addressed without creating discontent?
Ok, lets look at two different ideas.
1) Women. It is an old saying that men are good at math and science and women are good at reading and writing. Is this true? If it is true, then what does it mean?
Here is the truth, men have an inherent advantage in mathematics, it manifests itself at a young age and continues throughout life. This is caused by evolutionary pressure on the male. This visuo-spatial advantage has caused IQ tests that emphasize mostly on those visual skills to report that men are more intelligent than women by a few IQ points.
If you tell women that they are 14 times less likely to be extremely gifted at math than men, how would you go about encouraging women to pursue math/engineering fields which they might be discouraged from entering because they believe they are inherently inferior?
2) Sports. Lets take a sport like Basketball. How many Asians honestly believe they will ever be stars in the NBA? How do you encourage Asians to pursue sports that are completely dominated by other "races", if they are seen as inherently inferior?
I guess you can always hold up Yao Ming and say "See, Asians can play basketball just as well as anyone else". But is that really true?
There have been thousands of studies, even by some very non-racist and extremely optimistic people. All the cheerleading in the world will never erase the male-female math score gap. Nor will all the cheerleading in the world erase the black-white math score gap. And even the white-asian math score gap.
When it comes to blacks and underachievement, the first thing that must be assessed is their probability of success based on inherent abilities and limitations. This should create a more realistic level of expectations for blacks in our society.
What we have now is a view that all groups are equal(men/women/whites/blacks/asians/etc), and so if each group isn't perfectly equal in the work force, then there must be some evil oppressive force trying to hold down one group for the benefit of another.
I personally believe blacks as an entire group are actually overachieving in our society. Based on their cognitive abilities in relation to other groups. And I actually believe Asians are intentionally held back by our society, and they are already the most overrepresented group in doctoral/engineering positions.
In fact, as attacks against affirmative-action are becoming more and more common(with many states instituting a ban on the policies). We should actually see a total drop in representation by blacks in all levels of upper employment. With the largest beneficiary of repealing affirmative-action not being whites, but asians.
Unions are another institution that is dying in this country, unions were another protector of minorities. I don't understand how anyone would believe the future is bright for the black community.
Purple is the highest fertility rate in the world, and the blue is the lowest fertility rate in the world.
This is the predicted IQ level for each country. With East Asia/Europe being at the top, and Africa having the lowest IQ scores in the world, by rather large margins.
This is the future of the world population. With massive population growth in Africa and expanding across the world through mass immigration. I am very concerned. But, I'll be dead by then anyway, so who cares?
Last edited by Redshadowz; 07-23-2010 at 06:18 PM..
Of course you are. I'm also a self made millionaire business man, I mean a doctor, I mean I'm retired already, I mean I grew up poor and pulled myself by my bootstraps, I mean a lawyer...
learning is due to an individuals curiosity level and aptitude, this is across the board. if you have no interest in a subject you will not learn. you can't cure "any kind" of underachievement
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