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Old 08-04-2010, 05:26 PM
 
14,249 posts, read 17,874,800 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ovcatto View Post
Well Marx was no less dyed in the wool that any of them, the only problem (well not the only problem) is that they ignored his arguments that you couldn't have a socialist state until capitalism had reached its highest level of development. Imperial Russia was barely a capitalist state and even more barely an industrial one. As for China... shouldn't have even been mentioned in the same breath.

But I still hold a great deal of his analysis regarding the effects of capitalism on the working class as being right on the money. What to do about is a whole other issue.
Which is really a moving target.

Lenin considered that Imperialism was the highest form of capitalism. We all know now that he was dead wrong. One of the key features of capitalism is its ability to adapt to changing circumstances. So, it is a fair question as to whether capitalism has a "highest level of development" in which case, can socialism ever be achieved?
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:27 PM
 
2,125 posts, read 1,935,697 times
Reputation: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
In my opinion everyone should read and implicitly understand the US Constitution and what it all means before graduating from high school....
Okay? That doesn't really change what I said, I hope you don't think that was a clever rejoinder.
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:33 PM
 
2,125 posts, read 1,935,697 times
Reputation: 1010
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
Yes... its a fool's thought... a stateless society where there is no wage? We have HAD stateless society in the primitive times of humanity... you know what? It didn't work out... you can't get something for nothing, that's not how society worked before the invention of money or in make-up land... A society without wages doesn't change the fact that to get me to do something its got to be worth my while.... Marx brushed it aside saying we will do it "just because I said so" doesn't go over well with me but his fans missed it completely... unless there is someone with a gun telling me I have to or threaten me, it ain't going to happen...
Only a buffoon would reject the entirety of Marx's thought because they disagreed with his overly idealistic vision of communism as the stage which would bring about the full realization of human freedom. It is his analysis of capital and the way it functions in society that makes him worth reading, your tired critique of human motivation is as boring as it ever was, and the notion that Marx's version of a stateless society is similar to his conception of the stage of primative accumulation suggests that you didn't really understand what you read, if you actually read it at all.
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:35 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,785,444 times
Reputation: 9283
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunks_galore View Post
Only a buffoon would reject the entirety of Marx's thought because they disagreed with his overly idealistic vision of communism as the stage which would bring about the full realization of human freedom. It is his analysis of capital and the way it functions in society that makes him worth reading, your tired critique of human motivation is as boring as it ever was, and the notion that Marx's version of a stateless society is similar to his conception of the stage of primative accumulation suggests that you didn't really understand what you read, if you actually read it at all.
I don't reject everything he says and I never said that... but instead of making a defense... you continue to attack and you never once refute my claim... typical... primitive accumulation does not negate innate human behavior... something Karl Marx never understood... he never understood the simple concept "I do NOT work for free"
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:40 PM
 
2,125 posts, read 1,935,697 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
I don't reject everything he says and I never said that... but instead of making a defense... you continue to attack and you never once refute my claim... typical... primitive accumulation does not negate innate human behavior... something Karl Marx never understood...
There is no defense to be made because you haven't made a real claim. You just said it's "a fools thought" and then built up a straw man which you clumsily tore down.

Please explain what "innate human behavior" is. I'd love to hear it. Also, it's becoming evident that you don't actually understand the terms I'm using, since Marx never claimed that primitve accumulation negates anything, or claimed that people would work for free.
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:41 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,785,444 times
Reputation: 9283
Quote:
Originally Posted by EinsteinsGhost View Post
US Constitution doesn't deal with capitalism versus Marxism. So you may stop your attempt at deflection and stick with the topic at hand.
Excuse me... Marxists seeks to eliminate rights so that communism can emerge... If someone brought up that it should be mandatory for someone to learn about Marxists, I have every "right" that the same people know what rights were granted to them in the US constitution which is as on topic as anything.... If one were to "stay on topic" a simple yes or no would suffice but for you to point out only my argument against Marxism shows a bit of limited thinking and bias...
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:42 PM
 
20,187 posts, read 23,785,444 times
Reputation: 9283
Quote:
Originally Posted by dunks_galore View Post
There is no defense to be made because you haven't made a real claim. You just said it's "a fools thought" and then built up a straw man which you clumsily tore down.

Please explain what "innate human behavior" is. I'd love to hear it.
I do not work for free.... I didn't tear down anything just because you "said" so... strawman argument? That explains Marx to a "T"...
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:48 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
31,767 posts, read 28,751,991 times
Reputation: 12341
Quote:
Originally Posted by evilnewbie View Post
Excuse me... Marxists seeks to eliminate rights so that communism can emerge... If someone brought up that it should be mandatory for someone to learn about Marxists, I have every "right" that the same people know what rights were granted to them in the US constitution which is as on topic as anything.... If one were to "stay on topic" a simple yes or no would suffice but for you to point out only my argument against Marxism shows a bit of limited thinking and bias...
Lets stick to the topic first, so you have a better idea about Marx and Marxism and before you talk about it with any authority.

Not being educated on Marxism beyond a superficial way (for example googling up to claim to be an expert on the subject), I will now step out and observe.
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:50 PM
 
47 posts, read 31,496 times
Reputation: 24
I would throw out that who has read Mein Kampf? I mean its on the other side of the spectrum but just as demonized. I have read that its a dry read but very interesting.
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Old 08-04-2010, 05:50 PM
 
Location: texas
3,135 posts, read 3,768,664 times
Reputation: 1814
Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaluce View Post
Monkey Business: The Lives and Legends of the Marx Brothers is pretty funny....


Too funny
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