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Old 08-22-2010, 07:20 AM
 
3,566 posts, read 2,994,115 times
Reputation: 1828
Quote:
Originally Posted by USS Enterprise CV-6 View Post
Did Russia just make a major mistake. Like playing a game of Chess, they made a very bad move.
By giving Iran this nuclear fuel, I do not think they know what they just did.
If Russia knew that nuclear missiles in several countries have just been freed up for other
targets, they would not have done it.
Prior to Iran having nuclear capabilities, I bet several countries had their targets on oil
countries in the middle east to prevent it falling into enemy hands.
Now they do not have to worry about that. The Muslim countries with nuclear capability will target
Israel, and Israel's will target all oil producing countries in the middle east.
So with them taking care of each other, it frees up China's missiles and other countries to attack
someone else.
So thinking about strategic moves, is Russia now aware of their big mistake?
Does anyone else have a strategic opinion on this, did I miss something?


It was a brilliant move but I would expect no less. And no mistake on Russia's part. We have three major players: US, Russia and China. Everyone else can be controlled to a lesser degree. Where do you think Syria gets its crap from? The same crap that makes its way into Israel?

So, on the little people game, Iran wins a balance of power.

The Great Game plays on. I like to call it the ultimate mind expletive.
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Old 08-22-2010, 08:54 AM
Status: "knows the truth, doesnt care......." (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Cape Coral FL
2,760 posts, read 3,389,166 times
Reputation: 1163
Quote:
Originally Posted by king's highway View Post
St Andrew's Cross [Tsarist Navy flag again flies proudly over the Russian Navy] to rule the waves.
My mind wanders to thoughts of Tsushima

YC.......
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:04 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,770 posts, read 1,095,994 times
Reputation: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtcare View Post


My mind wanders to thoughts of Tsushima

YC.......


Keep on thinking that way...
as Sun Tzu advises in Art of War
when strong, feign weakness.



~
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:40 AM
Status: "knows the truth, doesnt care......." (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Cape Coral FL
2,760 posts, read 3,389,166 times
Reputation: 1163
Quote:
Originally Posted by king's highway View Post
Keep on thinking that way...
as Sun Tzu advises in Art of War
when strong, feign weakness.



~


Russians do NOT have to feign weakness.................

A Look Inside the Russian Navy – After Action Report | USNI Blog

pay particular attention to section #6 "hygeine aboard ship". Russian crews dont even have hot water, bathe once every ten days, and are ridden with lice.

Interesting comments on numbers of senior officers aboard, and their function as well.

State of the Russian Navy*| | Russian Arms, Military Technology, Analysis of Russia's Military Forces

This link shows that the most modern "capital" surface components of the russian fleet are of 30+ year old design.

To even call the russian fleet a paper tiger is a bit of a stretch. Not much has changed from 1905 to 2010.


I mention these things since the hardware to back up any "chess moves" is a pretty important part of the move itself. Russia's "moves" are dependant upon their ability to affect their sphere of influence directly by means of an overland route. They are woefully ill prepared to project any influence by means of seapower at this time.
YC.......
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:42 AM
Status: "Hitoribotchi no yoru" (set 3 days ago)
 
Location: Maryland about 20 miles NW of DC
4,594 posts, read 2,071,649 times
Reputation: 1620
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtcare View Post
My mind wanders to thoughts of Tsushima

YC.......

You can have many thoughts of what Tsushima means. One such though made Pearl Harbor such a brillant master stroke.
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:47 AM
 
Location: Long Island, New York
15,613 posts, read 5,463,105 times
Reputation: 3444
hmmm

google "russia iran gore"

the answers are out there people



Russia equips Iran for war
Moscow sells Tehran 29 anti-missile systems,
cites secret Al Gore agreement as justification

– Russia has signed a deal with Iran to sell 29 of its Tor M-1 anti-missile systems, a development that will complicate any planned pre-emptive attack on the rogue nation's nuclear facilities, reports Joseph Farah's G2 Bulletin.

The system would theoretically permit Iran to intercept some cruise missiles as well as airborne missiles that U.S., Israeli or other western countries might use in an effort to keep the terrorist-supporting nation from developing nuclear weapons or using them.

The sale was confirmed by a source at the Koupol military factory in Russia who claimed the deal would not violate any international agreement. That's because Moscow made a secret 1995 agreement with Washington known as the Gore-Chernomyrdin protocol, which Russian officials believes permits continued military sales to Iran.

Russian sources say the Tor system is "a weapon of defense" and does not represent a danger to the U.S. as long as Washington does not attack Iran.

Another Russian source says Iran only seeks "to defend its nuclear thermal power station" that Moscow is building in Bushehr – set for completion in 2007.

Washington, meanwhile, along with European nations, claims Iran is attempting to develop offensive nuclear weapons under the pretense of civilian activities.

The purchase of the systems Tor M-1 would cost Iran more than $700 million, according to experts on the subject. They say the surface-to-air missiles are capable of knocking down cruise missiles and aircraft bombs launched against a target.

The Gore-Chernomyrdin protocol was first disclosed publicly in 2000. It was the result of secret talks between then Vice President Al Gore and Russia's then-Prime Minister Viktor Chernomyrdin. After the revelations in 2000, the State Department acknowledged Gore assured Russia that, under the provisions of the agreement, the U.S. would not sanction the Kremlin for Russian arm sales to Iran – through 1999.

Critics of the agreement pointed out it was in violation of the spirit, if not the letter, of the Iran-Iraq Non-proliferation Act, sponsored by then Sen. Gore, that required the imposition of sanctions against countries that made destabilizing arms sales to either Iran or Iraq.

Gore's office was not available for comment.

Last edited by workingclasshero; 08-22-2010 at 09:55 AM..
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Old 08-22-2010, 09:49 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,770 posts, read 1,095,994 times
Reputation: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by yachtcare View Post


Russians do NOT have to feign weakness.................

Western propaganda does most of it... and Russia encourages it.


~
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Long Island, New York
15,613 posts, read 5,463,105 times
Reputation: 3444
Despite a Secret Pact by Gore in '95, Russian Arms Sales to Iran Go On
By JOHN M. BRODER
Published: October 13, 2000

WASHINGTON, Oct. 12— In June 1995, Vice President Al Gore signed a secret agreement with Viktor S. Chernomyrdin, then the Russian prime minister, calling for an end to all Russian sales of conventional weapons to Iran by the end of 1999.

But the deadline passed with no sign of a halt to such sales, despite repeated complaints late last year and this year to senior Russian officials by Mr. Gore, Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright and Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott. Moscow continues to be a significant supplier of conventional arms to Tehran despite the Gore-Chernomyrdin deal, the Central Intelligence Agency reported in August.

The 1995 agreement allowed Moscow to fulfill existing sales contracts for specified weaponry, including a diesel submarine, torpedoes, anti-ship mines and hundreds of tanks and armored personnel carriers. But no other weapons were to be sold to Iran, and all shipments were to have been completed by last Dec. 31.


-snip-

''Russia intends to maintain the dynamics of its bilateral ties with Iran,'' Marshal Sergeyev said, ''in the military, military-technical, scientific-technical and energy fields.''



(4 page story)

Despite a Secret Pact by Gore in '95, Russian Arms Sales to Iran Go On - NYTimes.com
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Texas
1,770 posts, read 1,095,994 times
Reputation: 587
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post

WASHINGTON, Oct. 12— In June 1995, Vice President Al Gore signed a secret agreement with Viktor S. Chernomyrdin, then the Russian prime minister, calling for an end to all Russian sales of conventional weapons to Iran by the end of 1999.

But the deadline passed with no sign of a halt to such sales, despite repeated complaints late last year and this year to senior Russian officials by Mr. Gore, Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright and Deputy Secretary of State Strobe Talbott. Moscow continues to be a significant supplier of conventional arms to Tehran despite the Gore-Chernomyrdin deal, the Central Intelligence Agency reported in August.

The great game changed August 9, 1999 when Yeltsin appointed
Vladimir Putin as Prime Minister. Then Yeltsin suddenly resigned on
Y2K eve making Vladimir Putin President.


For the mystical among us... reflect a moment on that red letter date...
those who know the prophecies of Nostradamus, recognize the 1999 date...
those who know Nostradamus' Julian calendar recognize August 9 is actually
the seventh month.



~
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Old 08-22-2010, 10:19 AM
Status: "knows the truth, doesnt care......." (set 14 days ago)
 
Location: Cape Coral FL
2,760 posts, read 3,389,166 times
Reputation: 1163
Quote:
Originally Posted by king's highway View Post
Western propaganda does most of it... and Russia encourages it.


~
And russia has a penchant for buying it's own propaganda. The resulting over confidence comes back to bite her over and over. Just have a little gander at history.

That was pretty much my point with the Tsushima reference. The St Andrew's cross went down in flames pretty heavily that day. Centuries of empire instilled confidence dashed to pieces by a relative newcomer.

Can you think of any modern day parallels?

I'm not trying to beat up on russia. They have a long history of repelling invaders once they have reached land. And they controll occupied territory handily. But at sea, the story is much different.

YC.......
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