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People died in Pintos. If there had been government regulation, perhaps they wouldn't have.
People die crossing the street, if there was government regulations banning crossing the street, perhaps they wont die. And there was federal regulations in place. All you keep doing is validating how wrong your argument is..
1) The vehicle was removed from the market because of PRIVATE market driven causes.. NOT the government
2) There was federal regulations in place, that didnt stop people from dying. You cant regulate the end to deaths..
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Originally Posted by Georgiafrog
Yes I believe that taxpayers have some right to speak upon how the money should be spent.
I dont.. the minute you give up your money, its no longer yours to speak upon how it should be spent. Thats like claiming that you can tell your kids how to spend their inheritance.
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Originally Posted by Georgiafrog
But again, there should be some sort of moderation in it's spending. If all taxpayers thought that none of their money should go to help others, they would be wrong.
Your last point is interesting, but most of the cries I have heard have been for less regulation. I still seek the terms of regulation that would be acceptable, as most have decried any sort of regulation, whatever.
Again, no one is claiming that "none" of their money should go help others. Your OP is flawed.. No one is claiming there shouldnt be regulation.. Again, your OP is flawed.. Thats a strawman argument that you hear being made by the left who dont mind outright LYING about the positions of conservatives. No conservative supports doing away with all welfare, or regulations. That position is held by libertarians, not conservatives.
Good to hear that you're recognizing that capitalism and competition can't solve all of our problems. It's also nice to hear from someone who has compassion for those who are less fortunate or less able to care for themselves.
"Every man for himself" sounds good on paper, but it's no way to run a civilized society.
This is very true. A huge irony here is that a fair share of government and regulation is purely about protecting property interests.
I had always been one to believe that the way to make it is to be a self made man...But lately, I have been considering things from a different point of view than before. It has caused me to begin to see the conservative notion of lower/middle class upward mobility to be an illusion. A thinly veiled illusion just barely masking a nearly medieval caste system, where the rich really do just get richer, and the poor, without some sort of leveller of the playing field, will continue to struggle.
Conservatives like to claim that any regulation of business is too much regulation. I say that we can't let the beast completely loose. During America's early history, many of our internal struggles had to do with how much control the government should have over business. Things like tarriffs, workers rights, monopolies, strikes, and socialism were the hot topics, along with government control at either the state or federal level of "personal property", the most famous being slaves.
I am not advocating a socialist state that monitors the very thoughts and movements of it's people, or anything close, but it seems that lately, moderation is in order. I come closer to a view of government regulation not because I believe the government to be the most efficient body to regulate, but the only one. I believe that human life has an inherent value to it. There is worth merely in the property of being human. Yet throughout our history as a race, there has always been a ruling class, and variable degrees of under classes. And there is no doubt that the ruling classes have abused their priviledges, to the suffering of the under classes.
But how many hardworking, intelligent people never had the chance? It is true that wealth is passed down from generation to generation, and many times those that have the wealth influence the policies whether they earned the wealth or not. People in that position tend to make policies that keep the wealth (and control) in their own hands.
We have moved past that, of course, but not without revolt and outcry from the citizens and government. If that had not happened, would businesses have decided that child labor laws were the right thing to do?
Conservatives typically believe in keeping most drugs and narcotics illegal, I suppose in the hope of limiting people's access to them. This of course has given rise to an extreme of cartels, illegally trading and making billions off of the sale of drugs on the black market, and as we have seen lately, led to the murder of hundreds or thousands of people.
The more liberal position is to legalize most of the less dangerous drugs. This allows more personal freedom of choice, and would instantly destroy the illegal drug trade(of course). Seems much more logical and humane to me.
You are obviously a thinking person and are willing to question the "party line." We agree on quite a bit: Big Business is not benevolent, we have a very strictly controlled class structure in America, and the Drug War is sheer idiocy that does no "good" other than maximize the profits of Big Pharma.
Where we differ is how we view government. I've been around a while, I worked for State and Local government for 10 years, and I pay a lot in taxes.
I used to think government was a force that protected the people. I now understand it to be a massive and dangerous force that protects itself and a preferred few (the rich and the "new aristocracy" of elected and appointed officials).
There are plenty of things government could do to protect the Middle Class and the worker, like stopping Big Business from stealing pensions and using our 401K's as their own profit-generators, actually fixing the health care system (rather than making deals with all the big profit-makers to protect their interests), and most importantly giving massive tax breaks to anyone who is trying to save for retirement or start a small business that would employ workers.
Government today has conspired with Big Business to make sure the Middle Class will be gone in the next 20 years. In my life I have a thousand negatives from government, and almost no benefits. The benefits I have seen would have been much more easily and cheaply achieved with the willing cooperation of a group of property owners.
I am happy to let liberal Democrats have their places where they trade huge portions of their income for the false promise of "security" (remember Ben Franklin's statement on that?). What I resent is that there is literally no place left to go where you can be free from government not only confiscating half your income, but also micro-managing pretty much every move you make. Government has never given me a penny in my life, and never will, yet it has grabbed a piece of every paycheck I made since I started work at 16. I ask nothing of it. I just want it to be satisfied with just stealing from me, and stop demanding that I kiss the butt of a public employee that I pay for every time I make an insignificant move like build a fence on my own property.
My family has been looking to buy a small business to semi-retire to, but after falling in love with some very remote parts of Pennsylvania, I find that the state (and others) has adopted a "statewide building code" so that even in the middle of nowhere, I would end up actually hiring consultants to serve as pseudo-bureaucrats to micro-manage any improvements to the property. This is particularly galling when my family has the expertise to do any improvements we would want to, and having to hire "experts" because government requires it is ridiculous.
So the money we would like to invest remains untouched, and the workers we would like to hire remain unhired. Because government, while failing to provide the protections it promises, has become so large and invasive that only the Big Businesses (the very worst abusers of workers) can survive.
As a thinking person, you can investigate the various effects that acts of government have on the economy. Do you think Obamacare was worth the costs? Was the problem of health care affordability solved, or made worse? Who benefitted? What would you do if you had the power of Big Government? Would you confiscate half the income of a working professional couple who spent their lives working 80 hour weeks and built up careers? Or would you let them save for their own retirements? Would you give them tax breaks for starting a business that employs workers? Obama's Big Government won't: Obamacare is a huge new tax on having employees.
You will find, as I have, that government is actually the main force that keeps Big Business and the rigid Class Structure in place. Government makes ALL the rules and the tax structure that the economy functions within. Do you think that sending jobs overseas, the wage stagnation that started in the 1970s, the CEOs getting 500 times the salary of the worker for a year or two at the helm of a company, the replacement of pensions with worker savings, and the combined weight of taxation at all levels of government, are not fully supported by Washington? Do you think these trends are good for America?
Government does not care that the Middle Class is going away; it cares about having trillions of dollars to spend on Halliburton and foreign wars and giveaways for unfeasible "green energy" fads. It does not care that the $13 trillion debt cannot be repaid under any economic scenario that economists can theorize. Elected and appointed government officials are our "new aristocracy" and they join the established aristocracy of wealth to rule our Country. They do not like the Libertarian feelings that threaten their power, and they will do everything they can to make traditional Democrats and liberals think that Government is "for the working man."
Nothing could be farther than the truth. The Republicans support the ultra-rich and Big Government, the Democrats support the non-productive lowest classes and Big Government, but only Libertarians support the Middle Class.
Continue to think and analyze, rather than listening to the media's sound bites. The conclusions are inevitable. More and more of us have discovered them.
Why would you not pay for your eduction? If you educate yourself and increase your pay from $10K a year to $30K a year, and the ecuation cost $15K, what makes you think I should pay to increase your paycheck? Isnt the fact that you've tripled your standard of living reason enough to pay to get ahead? I dont have a college degree, but I've learned what I needed. When I needed to learn Cold Fusion programming, I opened up a book. AIX, a book. And when I didnt have time to learn what I needed, I hired others who did. Paying them to do something for me was well worth the increase in pay. I didnt need the government to pay me to pay the programmers, and you surely dont need the government or others to pay for you to triple your income. Thats ridiculous.
I'm sorry but I dont think you were at all conservative to begin with. No conservative would ask what programs should be made available to help people take care of themself. You dont need mandates to teach people to get up and earn their way. You need to stop giving 50% of society an easy way out and this country will rebound so fast and so great that it'll make the recovery of the 1920's or the WWII economy seem like a recession..
If someone is completely unable to pay for an education, this is a reasonable question. It is also resonable when you consider that regardless of the cause, in some communities there is a history of mis-education of ideals. There is no Universal bone of success. It is a learned process.
Quite the contrary, there was a point where I was very party line conservative. My questions began to arise when I started to question this very thing. Is there some inherent nature in human beings to be able to decipher the most successful course in their lives? Some people are raised to think the way that you do, and some are raised not to think at all. Those people, perhaps, need some sort of guidance. I agree with your conclusion of this last post. We do not need 50% of our population on welfare, if that is a correct number. But rescinding the current help to those people is not going to make them more productive if the current situation is all they know. The government is the only entity around that could help them to reeducate.
It takes 12+ hour days, 7 days a week, for 10 years to obtain what I have.. But I've adopted two children, I have a family, I have responsibilities to take care of them, not pass the cost onto society. Thats what a responsible citizen does..
Clearly if you had depended on the government for this goal
you'd still be trying to obtain it
Congrats on achieving YOUR GOALS
I hope that someday people figure it out that it's themselves
and the lack of GOALS that keep them where they are.
If someone is completely unable to pay for an education, this is a reasonable question.
There isnt one individual in this nation denied healthcare, or education, regardless of their inability to pay.
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Originally Posted by Georgiafrog
It is also resonable when you consider that regardless of the cause, in some communities there is a history of mis-education of ideals. There is no Universal bone of success. It is a learned process.
And how much is learned by sitting at home collecting a check? But now by your own admission its a learned process. I failed, and I failed, and I failed, until one day I succeeded. I failed so many times that I wont even discuss here the things which has happened to me (yes, far more than I've ever posted here). But its these failures that TEACH one how to succeed.. We are not allowing people to fail, and because of that, people are not LEARNING how to succeed, and its pulling this country down fast!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiafrog
Quite the contrary, there was a point where I was very party line conservative. My questions began to arise when I started to question this very thing. Is there some inherent nature in human beings to be able to decipher the most successful course in their lives?
Yep.. that very same failure you listed above is often the most successful course to succeed. Imagine if Thomas Edison was alive today.. Well Mr Edison, you failed, heres a check to NOT produce the lightbulb..
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Originally Posted by Georgiafrog
Some people are raised to think the way that you do, and some are raised not to think at all.
And when the government is paying you to sit at home and not produce, what do you think they are being taught?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Georgiafrog
Those people, perhaps, need some sort of guidance. I agree with your conclusion of this last post. We do not need 50% of our population on welfare, if that is a correct number. But rescinding the current help to those people is not going to make them more productive if the current situation is all they know
History proves you incorrect. When the help was cut under Clinton, we not only seen a great decrease in those unemployed, but an economic boom, lower deficits, more were working, despite all of the left wing fears that people would starve to death. This is where liberals get this wrong. Bush GREATLY increased the amount of support for the poor.. but all they keep talking about is how much Bush hated the poor.. Bush DOUBLED the amount of welfare to those who were less fortunate.. Has it made us any better?
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Originally Posted by Georgiafrog
The government is the only entity around that could help them to reeducate.
Wrong.. You dont need government to re-educate you, you need the drive and the will to want to learn and not be satisfied with your current situation. People will take the steps needed to better themself even without the government there helping you. No one needs help to educate themself. Libraries are free.
if you dont learn now not to fail.. you will NEVER succeed..
In my life I have a thousand negatives from government, and almost no benefits.Government has never given me a penny in my life,
I assume that you were exclusively privately educated, never walked on a public street, have never driven a car, carry your own air supply, purify your own water, and live amongst individuals who would never consider committing any sort of crime?
Quote:
What I resent is that there is literally no place left to go where you can be free from government not only confiscating half your income, but also micro-managing pretty much every move you make.
Funny, I spent the entire day conducting business and don't recall a single moment of micro management. By the way, even Bill Gates doesn't pay 50% of his income in taxes. Either you are given to wild hyperbole or you need a new accountant.
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This is particularly galling when my family has the expertise to do any improvements we would want to, and having to hire "experts" because government requires it is ridiculous.
Either you family has the expertise to make improvements to code or they don't. Obviously if you need to hire "experts" your family doesn't have the expertise that you claim.
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As a thinking person, you can investigate the various effects that acts of government have on the economy. Do you think Obamacare was worth the costs? Was the problem of health care affordability solved, or made worse? Who benefitted?
Since very little of the healthcare program has come on line, I think that it is a bit premature to for a cost benefit analysis.
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What would you do if you had the power of Big Government? Would you confiscate half the income of a working professional couple who spent their lives working 80 hour weeks and built up careers?
I still dying to know what possible tax bracket you are in to be paying taxes at a rate of 50%.
Quote:
You will find, as I have, that government is actually the main force that keeps Big Business and the rigid Class Structure in place. Government makes ALL the rules and the tax structure that the economy functions within. Do you think that sending jobs overseas, the wage stagnation that started in the 1970s, the CEOs getting 500 times the salary of the worker for a year or two at the helm of a company, the replacement of pensions with worker savings, and the combined weight of taxation at all levels of government, are not fully supported by Washington? Do you think these trends are good for America?
I find this to be indicative of these meandering pity parties thrown by teabaggers and their fellow travelers. A smorgasboard of complaints about government sprinkled in with a shot at "Big Corporations" without a single acknowledgment of the fact that this is what happens in capitalist states, but god forgive them if they ever questioned the underlying economic model.
Why would you not pay for your eduction? If you educate yourself and increase your pay from $10K a year to $30K a year, and the ecuation cost $15K, what makes you think I should pay to increase your paycheck? Isnt the fact that you've tripled your standard of living reason enough to pay to get ahead? I dont have a college degree, but I've learned what I needed. When I needed to learn Cold Fusion programming, I opened up a book. AIX, a book. And when I didnt have time to learn what I needed, I hired others who did. Paying them to do something for me was well worth the increase in pay. I didnt need the government to pay me to pay the programmers, and you surely dont need the government or others to pay for you to triple your income. Thats ridiculous.
Actually, Pell Grants and other government grants are extremely difficult to get. You have to be a teen mom to get one. Anyone who made responsible decisions as a teenager has to rely on mom and dad, student loans, or work. The thing about some of these government programs is that they punish responsible people.
I'm sorry but I dont think you were at all conservative to begin with. No conservative would ask what programs should be made available to help people take care of themself. You dont need mandates to teach people to get up and earn their way. You need to stop giving 50% of society an easy way out and this country will rebound so fast and so great that it'll make the recovery of the 1920's or the WWII economy seem like a recession..
There are many who can't find jobs right now. There aren't enough jobs to go around for everyone who wants a job. Even minimum wage jobs aren't hiring. I have applied for several. There are many who are on unemployment who simply don't want to be on unemployment and are using unemployment as a last resort. These people used their savings, looked for work, and even asked their church for help. I used my savings, looked for work right when I found out I was being laid off, and asked my church for help but the benevolence funds ran dry so I had to apply for unemployment as a means for survival.
We really need to do something about the jobs crisis in this country. There are too many companies offshoring. Too much uncertainty in Washington and too many companies taking advantage of cheap foreign labor. If places don't start hiring AMERICANS, we will all pay the long term costs of chronic joblessness. We will pay these costs in the form of higher taxes, a poorer economy, and higher crime. People have actually robbed banks because they can't find jobs. It's sad.
I am a liberal too and I really can't stand the repub/conservative/tea party point of view. It just seems really greedy, selfish, gold digging, hateful, and racist in my opinion.
I want to help those who really need our help (not rich people) the poor and homeless and I believe everyone should be allowed to marry despite gender, I mean really? who cares? I believe that if a women can't keep a baby then she should do what she feels right not let others control her. I also think that we should help ourselves in America before we go helping other countries (Haiti)
I assume that you were exclusively privately educated, never walked on a public street, have never driven a car, carry your own air supply, purify your own water, and live amongst individuals who would never consider committing any sort of crime?
your just being ridiculous.. The op never said they havent benefited from governments existance, they said they never received a penny. Do you seriously not know the difference? p.s. water, air, streets, education, cars, and lack of crime, all exist without governments existance.. Try again..
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