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Just to add to my statement above anthracite was the primary heating source up and down the eastern seaboard until after the second world war. A bit of trivia, we've all seen the pictures of European cities clouded in a dense black smog. The major reason this problem didn't exist in Eastern US cities is because they were using anthracite for heat.
the problem is mercury vapor:
Actual University of Calgary study from late '90's:
How Mercury Causes Brain Neuron Degeneration (http://commons.ucalgary.ca/mercury/ - broken link)
In my book, as well as all other sensible people's, if an industry needs massive tax credits, government subsidies, and propaganda to force it through, then it's crock. There is no demand for "green" energy because it is so expensive. It's just a huge hole to pour money in where you will not get a return. And even if we transitioned to a "green" economy, you really think the jobs are going to stay here? Those solar panels and the like are so expensive, they'll end up being Made in China in the end.
You mean like these?
U.S. energy subsidies alone were between thirty-seven billion and sixty-four billion dollars in 2003. These subsidies were increased by two to three billion dollars annually in the provisions of the Energy Act of 2005.
That's just energy such as oil, NG, and coal. Agriculture, and transportation also get huge government subsidies.
Where are those tea partiers, and other conservatives when it comes to these billions of dollars of government handouts when it come to the fossil fuel industry? They'll scream bloody murder over healthcare, but say nary a peep at the billions of dollars of subsidies over fossil fuels.
It seems like welfare to me. Welfare to an industry with more net profits than any other global industry.
Will some conservative explain your rationale? Why do you scream like a banshee over subsidies to green energy technolgy, but are as quiet as a scared little mouse in the corner when it comes to billions in government welfare to the fossil fuel industry? You people keep hollering about "socialism", well, why aren't you hollering about this socialism?
I'm truly curious.
And yet you still refuse to acknowledge the toxic waste and dumping thereof that has resulted from the manufacturing of so called "green" solar products in China. Is that what you want here? Really?
You're not helping you're credibility here.
1st of all lets be clear on this: I have not EVER stated that pollution does not occur in China. NEVER. So whatever fantasy scenarios you've somehow concocted or whatever voices you have imagined, get this thru your head, THEY"RE WRONG.
2ndly I have already addressed my position on money and jobs being moved to China, of which rather than address this reply, you disappeared into the mist.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kovert
Now let me make this clear, this is what I posted to in response to your statement that stimulus jobs were being sent to China.
Don't like stimulus dough going to foreigners, will if the Buy America provisions wasn't so strongly opposed, a lot of that bread that was siphoned off overseas, could've been spent in the states.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
Do you realize that with our regulatory agencies that there is no way to ever compete with manufacturing overseas that freely dumps toxic waste and pay slave labor wages? Or, are you just ignoring this fact to push Cap & Tax agenda?
Lady, you really need to do your homework before making all your utterly baseless and nonsensical accusations.
Thread after thread, posts after post, I have made about getting out of bad trade agreements, and highlighting ideas and strategies to bring back domestic healthy and strong manufacturing and high tech industries to the states. Not once have I ever endorsed cap and trade and just recently in this damn thread itself I have said that removing subsidies from the fossil fuel industry should be implemented rather than a carbon tax.
Damn near every time I have posted here I have done this and my record shows it.
So tell me what have you posted about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
Please point out anywhere in this thread where it has been indicated by those with opposing postitions to the OP that there are no side effects from pollution. Bet you cannot! No one has made that claim. Liberals are pathological liars if your posts are any example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
Do you have a definitive medical diagnosis that the coal fire was responsible for the ASD and nothing else?
Quote:
Originally Posted by theunbrainwashed
I have terrible asthma and I live a couple miles from a coal plant and we have bad air quality in the summer, yet I haven't had an asthma attack since my last flu 2 years ago
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero
btw...there has been NO OFFICIAL CONNECTION of mecury to autism...according to the government
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD
And just where is your proof that the coal plant caused the condition?
Quote:
Originally Posted by SourD
I do, but you are running on pure emotion and not anything that is provable. Theories and possible causes, yes but nothing concrete.
So who's the liar now?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifelongMOgal
No, what the OP is doing is ignoring the pollution and non-green aspects of "renewable energy" industries while pushing for the taxpayer subsidization of the same.
Funny 'cause the way I see it, you're the one that can't seem to understand that civilization entire existence depends on a finite fuel supply that will eventually run out.
And look gal, this stuff doesn't grow on trees. We won't be able resupply this source for the next few million years.
How much is China's population, over a billion? India, almost a billion,Brazil hundreds of millions. Add in the developed nations and other nations looking to catch up, plus population and consumption rate increases then its not rocket science to comprehend that this will cause the finite fuel pie to decline.
Now those facts are what YOU are ignoring.
What YOU are ignoring is the trillions of tax payer subsidies going to build up infrastructure for hostile, enemy nation and fuel cartels that pay the tax payer back with price gouging and reckless oil spills.
Not helping your credibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman
Yes but within the last century we have gone from the horse and buggy to putting robots on distant planets. My point is within the time frame before they run out I think we can figure out how to produce power in a cost effective matter. What we don't want to do is force it into the system because it will be a disaster. Producing power cheaper than coal is a pretty big plum to pick and market forces will easily overcome this problem if left to their own, government interference with subsidies and mandates is only going push the time when we have truly competitive renewable resource into the future.
Dude, you do realize that we are able to send robots to other planets because of Kennedy's space programs, NASA, DARPA along with other gubmint agencies and initiatives, in other words, government interference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman
I recently had a house fire so at this time I use oil for heat however at this time next year my coal stoker which has kept me warm for the last 30 years will be installed inside my basement.... and no it's not what you're thinking. It's fully automated with little difference than regular boiler and you'd never know I'd use coal for heat inside or outside the house unless I told you. FYI I'm probably greener than most on this forum for a lot of reasons, mostly its due to the very low energy impact of actually getting the energy to my house and very high efficiency of the boiler.
My forum name is derived from being a third generation "Coal Man"... oil man, milk man, coal man....
Sorry for your recent tragedy and good luck with your beloved coal.
Hmmm, interesting tidbit, that your family is so rooted in coal.
U.S. energy subsidies alone were between thirty-seven billion and sixty-four billion dollars in 2003. These subsidies were increased by two to three billion dollars annually in the provisions of the Energy Act of 2005.
That's just energy such as oil, NG, and coal. Agriculture, and transportation also get huge government subsidies.
Where are those tea partiers, and other conservatives when it comes to these billions of dollars of government handouts when it come to the fossil fuel industry? They'll scream bloody murder over healthcare, but say nary a peep at the billions of dollars of subsidies over fossil fuels.
It seems like welfare to me. Welfare to an industry with more net profits than any other global industry.
Will some conservative explain your rationale? Why do you scream like a banshee over subsidies to green energy technolgy, but are as quiet as a scared little mouse in the corner when it comes to billions in government welfare to the fossil fuel industry? You people keep hollering about "socialism", well, why aren't you hollering about this socialism?
I'm truly curious.
Bravo!
OFF TOPIC (SORT OF):But unfortunately corporate welfare is going to get worse due to Citizens vs FEC
Last edited by aspiesmom; 09-15-2010 at 11:34 AM..
Apparently, US labor unions DO take the "Green Race" very seriously AND realize how very high the stakes are: Levin presses Obama to
Sen. Levin presses Obama to ‘promptly investigate’ China's green energy trade practices
By Ben Geman - 09/15/10 01:17 PM ET
"Sen. Carl Levin (D-Mich.) on Wednesday urged President Obama to quickly act on allegations that China’s green energy subsidies are violating World Trade Organization rules.
“It has become alarmingly obvious that China seeks to dominate the renewable energy industry through measures that discriminate against foreign manufacturers in this important and growing field,” Levin writes, calling on USTR to “promptly investigate.”
The union alleges that various Chinese subsidies and preferences for domestic firms are harming U.S. companies and freezing them out of a growing market. The union wants the administration to bring a case against China before the WTO...."
Last edited by aspiesmom; 09-15-2010 at 01:46 PM..
"An economy that runs on clean energy needs green jobs. As investments catalyze the growth of a new, clean energy economy, we are finally ready to replace the old debate of "jobs vs. the environment" by investing in "jobs for the environment."
Truth be told, workforce shortages have emerged as one of the top barriers to the success of a new energy economy. A 2006 study from the National Renewable Energy Lab (PDF) identified the shortage of skills and training as a leading barrier to renewable energy and energy efficiency growth. Our country needs a new American Dream -- a green dream that includes everyone in our new vision of justice and prosperity. As we evolve to meet the challenges presented by the climate crisis, we have the opportunity to unite our nation around unprecedented labor mobilization and economic vitality...."
U.S. energy subsidies alone were between thirty-seven billion and sixty-four billion dollars in 2003. These subsidies were increased by two to three billion dollars annually in the provisions of the Energy Act of 2005.
That's just energy such as oil, NG, and coal. Agriculture, and transportation also get huge government subsidies.
Not sure where your numbers come from but the beancounters at the EIA put the number at 16.6 billion in 2007. That includes all sectors; fossil fuels, nuclear, hydro and renewables. The total is roughly split between traditional forms of energy and renewables. Ethanol is by far the largest recipient. The totals don't tell the whole story, the cost per BTU of generation is the important one. For example coal gets 44 cents per megawatthour while wind an solar get around $24. For liquid fuels petroleum receives fractions of a penny per gallon while ethanol is around 50 cents per gallon.
One thing to note is most of the coal subsidies go for R&D, the renewables are direct tax breaks effectively subsidizing production.
On energy, U.S. should not emulate Spain | Washington Examiner (http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/On-energy_-U_S_-should-not-emulate-Spain-8296446-61482222.html - broken link)
The Calzada study drew unusual criticism from the U.S. Department of Energy's National Renewable Energy Laboratory, which objected to the methodology of the Spanish researchers. But Robert Murphy, research economist at the Institute for Energy Research, called NREL's objections "contradictory and often downright silly," pointing out that two different techniques used by Calzada's team yielded identical results. "Where does NREL think the government's money comes from, the Tooth Fairy?" Murphy asked.
Green Energy
In the end, the economics just don’t add up. Without tax breaks and government subsidies, not a single alternative energy will be able to compete. So no matter how popular or fashionable alternative energy becomes, if it remains economically stupid, it’s destined to fail
Mass Subsidization of Green Jobs
As Dr. Hayward testified today, America’s subsidization of expensive, unreliable forms of energy cannot be sustained domestically, and cannot be defended as a foreign transfer aboard. It’s my hope that the committee left today’s hearing with a better understanding of what we can expect under this regime, and a better appreciation of the consequences it would necessarily visit upon the American people.”
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The American Green Dream
