Stephen Breyer Questions Right to Burn Quran (stats, deaths, Boxer)

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by chattypatty

The libs always invoke Timothy McVeigh, but who the heck is he? HE IS NOBODY. He represents nothing. He is not a representative of any religious group (he described himself as agnostic, not Christian). Even if he had been Christian, he did not ACT IN THE NAME OF CHRISTIANITY.

Don't you get it?

It is so frustrating. You cannot just pull random white people out of a hat and say "See? See? We have our evil folks too." It is not the same thing. Show me an avowed Christian (just one, I'm just asking for one, instead of the thousands and thousands to match the Muslim numbers) who has murdered thousands of innocent people in one fell swoop in the NAME OF CHRISTIANITY.

You can't, because no such person exists.

Torquemada?

He's dead, but he is an avowed Christian that was instrumental in driving Jews out of Spain, and then torturing and killing anyone who wasn't Christian enough.

I do get that we are often at cross-purposes in our conversation. But this shouldn't be a contest between religions. Does it really matter which religion generated the most evil person? Because, to me, there will be people who are evil, who will twist a religion's message, no matter what. But those people don't represent the religion. I think the Westboro Church does evil things, and has twisted Christianity's message. I don't think they are representative of Christianity. Nor do I think McVeigh was representative of any religion, (which obviously wasn't my point in that post, it was about people speaking out against him, and how there was universal horror at what he did, and millions of people were horrified, but didn't speak out personally, they let their leaders speak out for them). I don't think Al Qaeda is representative of Islam, either. So I think we should respect the religion, even if there are tenets we disagree with. I respect Catholicism, but I don't agree with it's sexism, I don't think that a person can only communicate with God via a priest. I respect Islam, though I don't agree with it. I respect Buddhism, and Hinduism and Wicca and basically I respect the individual people I meet and the beliefs they subscribe to about God and an afterlife and our purpose here. I respect them, and I hope that they can respect me and my beliefs. And I find that that's a good foundation for learning about other people, for establishing relationships with them, for being able to work together to solve problems. To me, that's the point of being human. The ability to forge relationships, to work together, to achieve greatness together.

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by chattypatty

One Christian nutter killed one innocent victim, NOT in the name of religion, and you think that is somehow EQUIVALENT to the continual acts of violence the world over perpetrated by Islamic terrorists??

Religious motivation is something to be taken very seriously with regard to Islam, since Islam has a track record of conquering and trying to take over as much of the world as possible, forcing conversions on their subjugated. Political and religious motivations are one and the same with Muslims.

I specifically said that the "Christian nutter" didn't commit his crime in the name of religion, so clearly I didn't think it was EQUIVALENT. I used that event to rebut your comments about how Christians would respond to such an event. Because there wasn't universal condemnation, was there?

I agree, religious extremism is something to be taken very seriously. But we should be wary of classifying every member of a religion as an extremist, when that's not the case.

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by chattypatty

Here is a website that keeps a tally of all the Muslim religious-inspired violence in the world on a day by day basis. Scroll down to the bottom of the page where the tally begins. It is quite eye-opening. If you can refute any of these claims, be my guest. He can only list a couple of months at a time because there are so many! But after that initial list, he has the tally year by year.

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

Many horrors are inspired by twisted interpretations of religious dogma. It's tragic.

[chattypatty]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

I specifically said that the "Christian nutter" didn't commit his crime in the name of religion, so clearly I didn't think it was EQUIVALENT. I used that event to rebut your comments about how Christians would respond to such an event. Because there wasn't universal condemnation, was there?

I agree, religious extremism is something to be taken very seriously. But we should be wary of classifying every member of a religion as an extremist, when that's not the case.

Sorry, I was not clear. That's my fault. I meant, if a Jewish or Christian committed widespread murder and on a continuous basis in the name of Judaism or Christianity, there would be a tremendous and swift outcry by members of that group.

Look at Bernie Madoff. He is a white collar criminal who destroyed people's financial lives (that's bad enough, but certainly not on par with an Islamic terrorist who actually kills and maims people). He did not do anything in the name of Judaism, and yet, every Jew I know hates him! He has been roundly condemned. But I can assure you that had he acted in the name of Judaism AND had his acts involved murder, the Jews would never let it rest! In general, speaking about the larger group and ignoring smaller splinter groups of crazies, Jews and Christians alike are very willing to speak out against their own people. I do not see that with Muslims.

Remember the Univ of Virginia shooter? He was Korean. The Korean community came out and made a statement about their shame. I felt so bad for them! I thought in that case it was so unnecessary, because he did not act in the name of Korea -- he just happened to be Korean and mentally unstable. Yet the community was just horrified and stepped up to take responsibility. THAT is the kind of honor I want to see coming out of the Muslim world, because there is clearly something wrong with that religion that it inspires so much evil and Muslims need to be getting on top of it.

Now it could be that Muslims are terrified to speak out against their radical elements, since they can then become a target themselves. But there is strength in numbers, and they need to have more courage. At the very least, they could stop whining "Islamophobia!" every time someone looks at them cross-eyed. I would like to see LOTS of Muslims step up to the plate and make point blank statements about the evils of their people WITHOUT the usual addendum of "but look how America is supporting the evil Zionist Joooos" as if that is any kind of justification.

[SourD]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

Many horrors are inspired by twisted interpretations of religious dogma. It's tragic.

What religion perpetrated what acts in recent times to qualify you equating the numerous upon numerous horros commited in the name of Islam to them?

[chattypatty]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

Many horrors are inspired by twisted interpretations of religious dogma. It's tragic.

Can we get a list of Jewish atrocities? Buddhist atrocities? Christian atrocities? Hindu atrocities? Pagan atrocities?

Man, I don't even think the Satanists come close to this list, and they're all about evil.

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by chattypatty

Can we get a list of Jewish atrocities? Buddhist atrocities? Christian atrocities? Hindu atrocities? Pagan atrocities?

Man, I don't even think the Satanists come close to this list, and they're all about evil.

We could engage all day in a contest about which religion is more evil based on the atrocities committed. I don't think that such a contest is productive. Do you? I mean women who drown their children in bathtubs, men who kill women for being wrores (I know how to spell it, the site won't let it go through), witches drowned and hung, things are done because the religious message is twisted to justify terrible things. The focus should be on preventing those terrible things from happening in the future. Right now, Muslim extremists are trying to convince moderate Muslims that Americans don't really believe in the principles we ostensibly try to spread around the world. We don't believe in freedom. We don't believe in tolerance. We don't believe in justice. If we are to convince those moderate Muslims that those are our values, then we have to uphold them. Burning Q'urans doesn't uphold those values.

[D-Towner]

Originally Posted by DC at the Ridge

Was the museum piece something that could have been expected to cause substantive harm???? No. It could have been expected to cause outrage, which it did, but was anyone's life endangered? No.

And new rules? Oliver Wendell Holmes's court established the criteria. I don't think even the most rabid conservative would call the Holmes' opinion "new rules."

I think one can argue that Christianity has a much lower proportion of extremists who would cause violence because of a taunting piece of artwork like that. I will not stand for restrictions on freedom of speech that might offend groups like Muslims. Restrictions like this exist in Europe and it is very undemocratic. You are saying that caving into the demands of these extremists is a good thing and I'm saying it is not.

[DC at the Ridge]

Originally Posted by D-Towner

I think one can argue that Christianity has a much lower proportion of extremists who would cause violence because of a taunting piece of artwork like that. I will not stand for restrictions on freedom of speech that might offend groups like Muslims. Restrictions like this exist in Europe and it is very undemocratic. You are saying that caving into the demands of these extremists is a good thing and I'm saying it is not.

I'm saying that when you and another person are in a screaming match, destroying something important to the other person is only going to escalate the conflict. While people are screaming at one another, nothing ever gets resolved. Continue the screaming and you'll eventually get violence. Stop the screaming, take a deep breath, and start talking, and even if things don't get resolved to both parties' satisfaction, at least the violence is curbed. It's not caving in. It's being rational.

[txgolfer130]

Originally Posted by ZGACK

Justice Stephen Breyer: Is Burning Koran 'Shouting Fire In A Crowded Theater?' - George Stephanopoulos' Bottom Line




So Breyer thinks it's plausible to restrict rights, rights given to everyone by God, and which are protected by the Constitution in the Bill of Rights, because people in a foreign country might be offended at how Americans choose to exercise a right. Geeezuzz.

God didn't give you and us those rights...the Constitution did.

And that's not what he said. He said in a sense yes, and in a sense no. People can express their views in debate...no matter how awful those views are, in debate in an open exchanging of ideas. That's the model. Then he referenced Justice Holmes in regards to shouting fire in a crowded theater, after George's posit that the conversation is now global...WHERE HE SAID THAT PERHAPS THE QUESTION WILL BE ANSWERED IN A SERIES OF CASES AND OVER TIME.

More hysteria and hyperbole. You have nothing to fear but Republican antics...